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'Lord’s Prayer opening may be ‘problematic'

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  • 'Lord’s Prayer opening may be ‘problematic'

    I consider the topic of this thread to be more appropriate to this board than Civics although if deemed it is more applicable to that board, please feel free to move it.

    The thread title is the headline in a Guardian article on the Archbishop of York's views about the patriarchal aspect to the Lord's Prayer.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ephen-cottrell

    The archbishop of York has suggested that opening words of the Lord’s Prayer, recited by Christians all over the world for 2,000 years, may be “problematic” because of their patriarchal association.

    In his opening address to a meeting of the Church of England’s ruling body, the General Synod, Stephen Cottrell dwelt on the words “Our Father”, the start of the prayer based on Matthew 6:9–13 and Luke 11:2–4 in the New Testament.

    “I know the word ‘father’ is problematic for those whose experience of earthly fathers has been destructive and abusive, and for all of us who have laboured rather too much from an oppressively patriarchal grip on life,” he said.

    His comment – a brief aside in a speech that focused on the need for unity – will divide members of the C of E, a body whose differences on issues of sexuality, identity and equality have been highly visible for years.

    After Cottrell’s speech, Canon Dr Chris Sugden, chair of the conservative Anglican Mainstream group, pointed out that in the Bible Jesus urged people to pray to “our father”.

    He said: “Is the archbishop of York saying Jesus was wrong, or that Jesus was not pastorally aware? It seems to be emblematic of the approach of some church leaders to take their cues from culture rather than scripture.”

    Rev Christina Rees, who campaigned for female bishops, said Cottrell had “put his finger on an issue that’s a really live issue for Christians and has been for many years”.

    She added: “The big question is, do we really believe that God believes that male human beings bear his image more fully and accurately than women? The answer is absolutely not.”

    In February, the C of E said it would consider whether to stop referring to God as “he”, after priests asked to be allowed to use gender-neutral terms instead.

    It agreed to launch a commission on gendered language, saying “Christians have recognised since ancient times that God is neither male nor female, yet the variety of ways of addressing and describing God found in scripture has not always been reflected in our worship”.

    Most of Cottrell’s speech was devoted to the word “our” rather than “father”, as a way of urging the fractious members of the synod to be a little more brotherly and sisterly in their discussions.

    He told members of the synod: “We remain stubbornly unreconciled, appear complacent about division, and often also appear all too ready to divide again […] We have got used to disunity. We think it’s normal when in fact, it is a disgrace, an affront to Christ and all he came to give us.”

    One of the most divisive issues within the C of E, same-sex marriage, led to a decision earlier this year to allow clergy to offer services of blessings to gay and lesbian couples who have undergone a civil wedding.

    The first blessings were expected this summer, after final approving of the wording of prayers by the synod meeting this weekend. But the presentation of the prayers, plus new rules on whether gay and lesbian clergy may marry their partners, and whether to lift the existing instruction that clergy in same sex relationships must be celibate, have been delayed until November.


    There is clearly dissent within the Church of England and the recent decision to allow church blessings for gay couples who have had a civil ceremony appears to be a nod towards SSM [while still opposing it in church services]. The findings of the commission may prove interesting, as are the comments from his Grace, the Archbishop.




    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

  • #2
    Only problematic to a woke scold seeking to appeal to SJWs

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #3
      The archbishop of York has suggested that opening words of the Lord’s Prayer, recited by Christians all over the world for 2,000 years, may be “problematic” because of their patriarchal association.

      The archbishop of York is apparently a moron. You could argue that any word in the English language (or any other language, for that matter) is "problematic" because someone, somewhere will have had a negative experience related to that word. That's a stupid reason to claim that the honorific "Our Father" in the Lord's prayer is somehow a problem.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #4
        If the God of the Bible identifies as a Father and masculine, people should respect His preferred gender expression.


        Responding within the nonsense aside, the Church of England was created in defiance of Christian precepts and has been recently in free fall. The Anglican communion is worthless outside of Africa. QE2 herself failed to "defend the faith" (a holdover from Catholic days) when she allowed Charles to marry Camilla.
        P1) If , then I win.

        P2)

        C) I win.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
          If the God of the Bible identifies as a Father and masculine, people should respect His preferred gender expression.


          Responding within the nonsense aside, the Church of England was created in defiance of Christian precepts and has been recently in free fall.
          Something of an overstatement. It could reasonably be said, however, that Elizabeth was intent on following the via media so as to allow for as many variations of Christianity as possible.

          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #6
            I find the Archbishop's comments somewhat bizarre given that Christianity is a patriarchal religion as indeed are the two other Abrahamic faiths. I suppose the pronoun could be changed from "Him/He" to "It" but that would not alter the underlying theological history of Christianity.

            Of course some Christians have their version of a Mother Goddess but she is not considered to be at the same level in the divine pecking order as the male entity[ies] of the Father and the Son, and presumably the Holy Spirit.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              Something of an overstatement. It could reasonably be said, however, that Elizabeth was intent on following the via media so as to allow for as many variations of Christianity as possible.
              More like she was just following the cultural tide as the Archbishop of York is doing. In her uncle's time, one high in line for the throne marrying a divorcee would have been a scandal, a crisis even.

              A so called "Defender of the Faith" to defend sin would be a failure of the position. Anglicanism was created for political reasons, not spiritual ones.
              P1) If , then I win.

              P2)

              C) I win.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                More like she was just following the cultural tide as the Archbishop of York is doing. In her uncle's time, one high in line for the throne marrying a divorcee would have been a scandal, a crisis even.

                A so called "Defender of the Faith" to defend sin would be a failure of the position. Anglicanism was created for political reasons, not spiritual ones.
                The fact that they married after the period they could have kids (and potential heirs to the throne) likely played into it.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                  More like she was just following the cultural tide as the Archbishop of York is doing. In her uncle's time, one high in line for the throne marrying a divorcee would have been a scandal, a crisis even.

                  A so called "Defender of the Faith" to defend sin would be a failure of the position. Anglicanism was created for political reasons, not spiritual ones.
                  As, in my opinion, are all religions created for political reasons.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                    Something of an overstatement. It could reasonably be said, however, that Elizabeth was intent on following the via media so as to allow for as many variations of Christianity as possible.
                    Which Elizabeth are you referencing?

                    Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                    More like she was just following the cultural tide as the Archbishop of York is doing. In her uncle's time, one high in line for the throne marrying a divorcee would have been a scandal, a crisis even.

                    A so called "Defender of the Faith" to defend sin would be a failure of the position. Anglicanism was created for political reasons, not spiritual ones.
                    Bear in mind the origin of the title Defender of the Faith. Nor did Henry VIII create Anglicanism.as such.

                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      :yawn:

                      DRAT!!!
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        Of course some Christians have their version of a Mother Goddess...
                        What "Christians" are those?
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          The fact that they married after the period they could have kids (and potential heirs to the throne) likely played into it.
                          I'm sure, but I don't see that carve out for divorcées who can't bear issues marrying while their first husband was still alive. I'd certainly make a better Supreme Governor of the Church of England and Defender of the Faith than either QE2 or Charles.
                          Last edited by Diogenes; 07-09-2023, 09:44 AM.
                          P1) If , then I win.

                          P2)

                          C) I win.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                            What "Christians" are those?
                            Have you not heard of the Cult of the Virgin or Mariolotry? Have you never told your Rosary beads with their decades?
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              Have you not heard of the Cult of the Virgin or Mariolotry? Have you never told your Rosary beads with their decades?
                              No, I haven't heard of them, and I don't have Rosary beads. But I do question the Christian faith of anyone who ignores scripture and history and tries to feminize God the Father.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment

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