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  • Originally posted by eider View Post
    Ah...well, whether the CofE can clean itself out to become an institution of love and understanding for all....I doubt that it will be able to for a few generations.
    It is steeped in secret groups, mammon, power, status and privilege ...which it's inner members will cling to with all their strength.
    I used to carry out security surveys on CofE premises for the Diocesan Board and the homes of the higher ranks were wealthy beyond wildest dreams. One study (as long as our home I should think) had a gun case about 12 feet long which held several pairs of English shotguns, any one pair being worth a freehold home.

    They won't let go easily.


    John's jealous....... several of his old comedian friends have been elevated to knighthoods etc and were present at that event.
    I'm skeptical about folks like Cleesy...... offer him a garter and he'd be on his knees faster than Charles could draw his sword.......
    Oh I think Cleese has completely fallen off his perch - rather like his Norwegian Blue! But he has suffered from psychological issues for some decades.

    As for the CoE and the Christian religion generally, one only has to read the history of the Christian church once it was granted toleration in the early fourth century to see how quickly it succumbed to "Mammon" and the desire for power. The internecine factionalism among ecclesiastical prelates vying with one another for patronage and ascendancy both within the confines of the church and with the secular [imperial] authorities would bear comparison with any half-decent US drama/soap opera. Many of those prelates could have taught the Roys of Succession of the Carringtons of Dynasty a thing or two.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      As for the CoE and the Christian religion generally, one only has to read the history of the Christian church once it was granted toleration in the early fourth century to see how quickly it succumbed to "Mammon" and the desire for power. The internecine factionalism among ecclesiastical prelates vying with one another for patronage and ascendancy both within the confines of the church and with the secular [imperial] authorities would bear comparison with any half-decent US drama/soap opera. Many of those prelates could have taught the Roys of Succession of the Carringtons of Dynasty a thing or two.
      And yet


      Consensus has it that those same men had what it took to rightly divide the scriptures and establish doctrines in accord with the teachings of Christ. Mind-boggling.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        And yet


        Consensus has it that those same men had what it took to rightly divide the scriptures and establish doctrines in accord with the teachings of Christ. Mind-boggling.
        Given the schisms and squabbles [often violent] within the early church how do you arrive at the conclusion there was "Consensus"? Do explain.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

          Given the schisms and squabbles [often violent] within the early church how do you arrive at the conclusion there was "Consensus"? Do explain.
          "Consensus has it" refers to the current consensus, otherwise, "consensus had it" would have been the appropriate phrasing. However, from Nicea and later, there was consensus, if only because dissenters were cancelled, often by the most final means possible.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            "Consensus has it" refers to the current consensus, otherwise, "consensus had it" would have been the appropriate phrasing.
            That is debatable concerning "doctrines in accord with the teachings of Christ.". Which teachings from the gospels are you going with?

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            However, from Nicea and later, there was consensus,
            There was no consensus "from Nicae" i.e. the First Council, concerning the "doctrines" believed to be in accordance with "the teachings of Christ". Do read up on the history of your religion. Comments like that serve to illustrate your ignorance.

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            if only because dissenters were cancelled, often by the most final means possible.
            For the more prominent it was usually exile and texts destroyed. However, decisions determining which orthodoxy should be applied were ultimately derived from the secular authorities [i.e. the various Emperors] influenced by the particular ecclesiastical party that was in the ascendancy at any given time.

            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              There was no consensus "from Nicae" i.e. the First Council, concerning the "doctrines" believed to be in accordance with "the teachings of Christ". Do read up on the history of your religion. Comments like that serve to illustrate your ignorance.

              For the more prominent it was usually exile and texts destroyed. However, decisions determining which orthodoxy should be applied were ultimately derived from the secular authorities [i.e. the various Emperors] influenced by the particular ecclesiastical party that was in the ascendancy at any given time.
              The dissenters were removed (or in the case of the fourth and fifth councils particularly, thoroughly cowed into submission) - the vast majority of the people remaining were in agreement.- which means that there was a consensus.
              Last edited by tabibito; 09-21-2023, 08:18 AM.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                The dissenters were removed (or in the case of the fourth and fifth councils particularly, thoroughly cowed into submission) - the vast majority of the people remaining were in agreement.- which means that there was a consensus.
                That was the only way the orthodoxy could be enforced. Believe it or else.

                Although we can never know how many in those early centuries merely paid lip service to it.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  Oh I think Cleese has completely fallen off his perch - rather like his Norwegian Blue! But he has suffered from psychological issues for some decades.
                  He's made his fortune and fame, so let's hope that he can afford any medicine that he may need.
                  I enjoy comedy but I find a vein of 'nasty' in those who set out to hurt with their humour.
                  Cleese's film 'Clockwise' was great fun, but his nasty reduction of other folks showed that he was a true carnivore.

                  As for the CoE and the Christian religion generally, one only has to read the history of the Christian church once it was granted toleration in the early fourth century to see how quickly it succumbed to "Mammon" and the desire for power. The internecine factionalism among ecclesiastical prelates vying with one another for patronage and ascendancy both within the confines of the church and with the secular [imperial] authorities would bear comparison with any half-decent US drama/soap opera. Many of those prelates could have taught the Roys of Succession of the Carringtons of Dynasty a thing or two.
                  People can be so wicked. If the monarchy reduces (which it might do now) then maybe the Church could be removed from anything to do with government?
                  My support for the monarchy dwindled with the passing of Elizabeth, and I think that has happened to many people here.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by eider View Post
                    He's made his fortune and fame, so let's hope that he can afford any medicine that he may need.
                    I enjoy comedy but I find a vein of 'nasty' in those who set out to hurt with their humour.
                    Cleese's film 'Clockwise' was great fun, but his nasty reduction of other folks showed that he was a true carnivore.
                    As is sometimes the way with comedians he has psychological problems. Robin Williams was a brilliant comedian but suffered from depression. The British comedian Kenneth Williams was a superb comedian and raconteur but was a deeply troubled individual and both men committed suicide.

                    Originally posted by eider View Post
                    People can be so wicked. If the monarchy reduces (which it might do now) then maybe the Church could be removed from anything to do with government?
                    My support for the monarchy dwindled with the passing of Elizabeth, and I think that has happened to many people here.
                    Reading Private Eye your present monarch is not exactly exerting himself or making any kind of "splash" with his new reign. I think you are right and many people feel that with the old Queen gone the regime has lost something and the reign of Charles III is just the "fag end" of the reign of Elizabeth II. However, I do not suppose he will refuse his 45% "wage increase" courtesy of the British tax payer.

                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      As is sometimes the way with comedians he has psychological problems. Robin Williams was a brilliant comedian but suffered from depression. The British comedian Kenneth Williams was a superb comedian and raconteur but was a deeply troubled individual and both men committed suicide.
                      I didn't know that KW had committed suicide. So many of the 'Carry on...' crew had such dreadful personal difficulties and problems. Some were just nasty in their private lives.
                      I once thought that the caste of Dad's Army must have been brilliant together, but they couldn't stand one another, one documentary explained. They gathered, shot show/s and departed.

                      Reading Private Eye your present monarch is not exactly exerting himself or making any kind of "splash" with his new reign. I think you are right and many people feel that with the old Queen gone the regime has lost something and the reign of Charles III is just the "fag end" of the reign of Elizabeth II. However, I do not suppose he will refuse his 45% "wage increase" courtesy of the British tax payer.
                      I feel sad for Charles in some ways, his totally destructive school experiences and ways in which his father pushed him where he didn't fit, but when he clutched to the crown it was clear that he didn't care so much for the monarchy, more for himself. William and Kate might save something of the monarchy, but Charles and Camilla?....

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by eider View Post
                        William and Kate might save something of the monarchy, but Charles and Camilla?....
                        They do present as being pretty much place holders. I was kind of hoping (forlorn hope) that Charles would either forego the crown or abdicate in favour of William.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          Oh I think Cleese has completely fallen off his perch - rather like his Norwegian Blue! But he has suffered from psychological issues for some decades.
                          Only thing I ever heard along those lines is that he admits he has problem dealing with wimmenfolk in a relationship which he has blamed on his mother.



                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            They do present as being pretty much place holders. I was kind of hoping (forlorn hope) that Charles would either forego the crown or abdicate in favour of William.
                            His popularity has been bouncing around in the mid to low 60s FWICT. Numbers that many politicians over here would be jealous of.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by eider View Post
                              I didn't know that KW had committed suicide. So many of the 'Carry on...' crew had such dreadful personal difficulties and problems. Some were just nasty in their private lives.
                              I once thought that the caste of Dad's Army must have been brilliant together, but they couldn't stand one another, one documentary explained. They gathered, shot show/s and departed.
                              I recall watching a documentary that showed just how badly the cast was treated [and paid] for those Carry On films. There are some classic moments though and my two favourites lines are from Williams as Citizen Camembert in Carry On Don't Lose Your Head" with his "Allez to Calais" and his "Infamy Infamy they've all got it in for me" as Julius Caesar from Carry on Cleo.

                              Originally posted by eider View Post
                              I feel sad for Charles in some ways, his totally destructive school experiences and ways in which his father pushed him where he didn't fit, but when he clutched to the crown it was clear that he didn't care so much for the monarchy, more for himself. William and Kate might save something of the monarchy, but Charles and Camilla?....
                              The family has been dysfunctional for generations. The only person that married into it that showed some humanity was Diana. I was always struck by the footage of Charles aged around 5 waiting in line to shake his Mama's hand on her return from some globetrotting event and Diana on her return from some foreign visit rushing up to her two boys and engulfing them in her arms and hugging them. William used to be quite attractive when he was a teen/early twenties with a distinct look of his mother, but those Hanoverian genes have certainly kicked in.
                              Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 09-22-2023, 01:13 PM.
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                They do present as being pretty much place holders. I was kind of hoping (forlorn hope) that Charles would either forego the crown or abdicate in favour of William.
                                Snap........ That might give the Crown a chance.
                                I don't think that Charles cares about the Crown, just about Charles.

                                Comment

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