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'Lord’s Prayer opening may be ‘problematic'

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  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    As you could not be bothered to address my points in full I will return the favour.
    You made points? What were they?

    Pliny describes one group of Christians. That group's method of worship cannot be extended to every single Christian sect in the early second century.
    Pliny provides a precis of practices that can reasonably be inferred as normative from the NT record. Actual ritual varies from group to group, but I detailed in the follow-on the parts of Pliny's account that were relevant.

    Your reference to scripture presumably refers to the LXX?
    What explanation of Christian practices could possibly be found in the LXX? Certain points in Christian beliefs can be found in the LXX, such as people looking on God after they pierced him, and that they would mourn; and that the almah (young woman) being pregnant was to be a sign from God. But you reject those records anyway.

    The lifestyle choice is given in Acts chapter two, specifically verses forty four and forty five.

    All who believed were together and had all things in common; 45 they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds[j] to all, as any had need.
    Two verses are not the sum of what the NT has to declare about Christian practice during the "apostolic age," nor do those two verses recount things that are necessarily normative in ordinary circumstances. They do however, most assuredly, recount what should be done when the need arises.

    Yet how many of you today [barring various orders of monks and nuns] practise that?
    Do they now?
    It is not my claim that the church follows the procedures of the "apostolic age" church. However, for all that the actions are not particularly followed as a general principle, there are quite a number of people and congregations who pattern their activity along those lines

    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      Pliny provides a precis of practices that can reasonably be inferred as normative from the NT record Actual ritual varies from group to group but I detailed in the follow-on the parts of Pliny's account that were relevant.
      You have no idea if those Christians as described by Pliny represent a norm.

      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      What explanation of Christian practices could possibly be found in the LXX?
      So to what Scripture were you referring with regard to the practises of early second century Christians?

      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      Two verses are not the sum of what the NT has to declare about Christian practice during the "apostolic age," nor do those two verses recount things that are necessarily normative in ordinary circumstances.
      Why not? They certainly echo the comments attributed to Jesus in Mark chapter ten.

      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      Do they now?
      If that is a reference to some monastic orders - yes..

      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      It is not my claim that the church follows the procedures of the "apostolic age" church.
      Why should it not? You have been somewhat critical of the worldliness of various prelates within the church from the fourth century.

      Perhaps it is time for you all to sell up and live communally.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        You have no idea if those Christians as described by Pliny represent a norm.
        Yet the practices described by Pliny are in accord with what is described in the NT.

        So to what Scripture were you referring with regard to the practises of early second century Christians?
        Various books of the NT. (BTW - where the spelling is used, "practise" is a verb; verbs don't have articles).

        Why not? They certainly echo the comments attributed to Jesus in Mark chapter ten.
        There is a tenuous connection with Mark 10:29-30, I suppose.

        If that is a reference to some monastic orders - yes.
        With some - possibly. With most, it seems that fewer monies are distributed to the poor than are diverted to church coffers.

        Why should it not? You have been somewhat critical of the worldliness of various prelates within the church from the fourth century.
        I am critical of the wordliness in Christians generally. You have had people point out to you, before and often, that wealth is not necessarily inconsistent with Christianity. Wealth does not necessarily indicate worldliness. (Which is made clear by ... oh yes ... the aforementioned passage, Mark 10:29-30)

        Perhaps it is time for you all to sell up and live communally.
        You seem to have an exaggerated opinion of my circumstances.
        Last edited by tabibito; 07-15-2023, 01:08 PM.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          Yet the practices described by Pliny are in accord with what is described in the NT.
          Which NT texts are you referencing? And are you suggesting that Pliny's Christians in Bithynia in the early second century had all the texts of what would later become the NT at their disposal? We have no idea from his correspondence what texts [if any] they had.

          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Various books of the NT. (BTW - where the spelling is used, "practise" is a verb; verbs don't have articles).
          To err is human.

          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          There is a tenuous connection with Mark 10:29-30, I suppose.
          I would suggest that those verses in Acts are somewhat more than a "tenuous connection" to the comments attributed to Jesus towards the rich man in Mark ten verse twenty one.

          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          With some - possibly.
          Thank you.

          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          I am critical of the wordliness in Christians generally.
          With good reason.

          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          You have had people point out to you, before and often, that wealth is not necessarily inconsistent with Christianity.
          Is that not at odds with your above comment?

          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Wealth does not necessarily indicate worldliness.
          What does it indicate then?

          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          You seem to have an exaggerated opinion of my circumstances.
          Commit your way to the Lord; trust in him, and he will act.

          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

            Is that not at odds with your above comment?
            No. How the person uses wealth is significant; the possession of wealth is not.


            What does it indicate then?
            A hypothetical Christian has ten million dollars if he liquidates all his assets, so that is what he does. He then distributes all that money to the poorest ten thousand people he can find ($1,000 each). That might improve their lot for a maximum of about six months, more likely one month. What has he achieved in real terms, apart from making himself one of the poor?
            A second hypothetical Christian likewise has ten million dollars if all assets are liquidated. He acts as a good steward, running a business and making a profit. From the profits he reserves a part to invest, part to live on, and part for charity works. In time he can provide enough work for ten workers, paying them slightly above the normal for the type of work they do. He can afford to employ eleven without detriment to the overall business plan, so he employs eleven. With more time, he gains enough money to expand the business, and employ yet more people.
            Christians are expected to be good stewards.
            The record of Acts shows that when people are said to have sold and shared "all that they owned," they still retained their houses and other property. That "all" is therefore hyperbolic. In the account of the rich young man, it is most likely that "sell all that you own and give to the poor" uses "all" in the absolute sense.

            Commit your way to the Lord; trust in him, and he will act.
            Far easier said than done.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              No. How the person uses wealth is significant; the possession of wealth is not.




              A hypothetical Christian has ten million dollars if he liquidates all his assets, so that is what he does. He then distributes all that money to the poorest ten thousand people he can find ($1,000 each). That might improve their lot for a maximum of about six months, more likely one month. What has he achieved in real terms, apart from making himself one of the poor?
              A second hypothetical Christian likewise has ten million dollars if all assets are liquidated. He acts as a good steward, running a business and making a profit. From the profits he reserves a part to invest, part to live on, and part for charity works. In time he can provide enough work for ten workers, paying them slightly above the normal for the type of work they do. He can afford to employ eleven without detriment to the overall business plan, so he employs eleven. With more time, he gains enough money to expand the business, and employ yet more people.
              Christians are expected to be good stewards.
              The record of Acts shows that when people are said to have sold and shared "all that they owned," they still retained their houses and other property. That "all" is therefore hyperbolic. In the account of the rich young man, it is most likely that "sell all that you own and give to the poor" uses "all" in the absolute sense.



              Far easier said than done.
              Your first hypothetical philanthropist does not need to do that. He could use his liquidated assets to establish co-operatives and/or other community projects for people to help themselves.
              Why does your second hypothetical philanthropist not turn his business into a co-operative?
              What "records" in Acts? Do we have information about property values, sales, and various lease agreements? Do we have inventories of other property?
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                Your first hypothetical philanthropist does not need to do that. He could use his liquidated assets to establish co-operatives and/or other community projects for people to help themselves.
                Why does your second hypothetical philanthropist not turn his business into a co-operative?
                With a base sum of ten million? Not an option. Ten million is a huge sum for an individual but it doesn't go far when it is distributed. Further down the track maybe, when a significantly larger sum might have accumulated, but that would involve withholding monies that would otherwise be put to needed immediate use. In the short term, the best that could be done would be to distribute some of the profits to the employees above their wages. Something like a Christmas bonus maybe.
                Following your procedure would most likely result in at least some members of the cooperative becoming wealthy themselves, which would be very much a problem from the perspective that you are advocating.

                What "records" in Acts? Do we have information about property values, sales, and various lease agreements? Do we have inventories of other property?
                We have records that show people were hosting meetings in their own homes, which would not have been possible if the homes had been sold and incorporated into the common fund. We have records of collections being taken to provide for famine relief, which would only be possible if people retained at least some of their possessions beyond what was immediately needed. We have the explicit statement that property and money remains the possession of the believer to do with as he sees fit. What we don't have is explicit records of monies being provided for the poor who were not Christians.
                Last edited by tabibito; 07-16-2023, 06:33 AM.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  With a base sum of ten million? Not an option.
                  Very much an option to establish a small project. Out of tiny acorns etc... How do you imagine the project at Rochdale in England started?

                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  Following your procedure would most likely result in at least some members of the cooperative becoming wealthy themselves, which would be very much a problem from the perspective that you are advocating.
                  That is not how co-operatives work although some can be run for profit.

                  https://www.thebalancemoney.com/how-...-works-4800835

                  A cooperative (co-op) is a business or organization owned by and operated for the benefit of its members. Profits or earnings are distributed among its members. The co-op can be a for-profit business or a non-profit organization. The co-op runs similarly to a corporation, because members purchase shares and elect a board of directors and officers. It differs from a corporation because typically each member gets one vote. Members of a co-op can be individuals, families, businesses, farmers/ranchers, or manufacturers


                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  We have records that show people were hosting meetings in their own homes, which would not have been possible if the homes had been sold and incorporated into the common fund.
                  What about this?

                  Now the whole group of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common. 33 With great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. 34 There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. 35 They laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need.
                  My emphasis.
                  Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 07-16-2023, 06:56 AM.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                    Now the whole group of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common. 33 With great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. 34 There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. 35 They laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need.
                    My emphasis.
                    First and foremost: in Koine Greek "holos" is often used in what for English would be a hyperbolic sense. Likewise, the pas/pasa/pan group, which can explicitly declare "without exception" as apas, apasa, apan. Problems arise because they can be used in contexts where they mean "without exception."

                    The entire group indicates the group in question, without reference to other groups.

                    The people referred to left themselves without housing? All of them?

                    This is one passage among a number that needs to be read with care.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      Very much an option to establish a small project. Out of tiny acorns etc... How do you imagine the project at Rochdale in England started?
                      Sometimes it might be appropriate to help establish a co-operative, admittedly. I consider that it would be inefficient in most circumstances and for most industries.

                      Not to mention - funding a cooperative would leave a person without the resources to fund anything else.
                      Last edited by tabibito; 07-16-2023, 08:02 AM.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                        Sometimes it might be appropriate to help establish a co-operative, admittedly. I consider that it would be inefficient in most circumstances and for most industries.
                        Again that depends on what sort of society you wish to see thriving.

                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Not to mention - funding a cooperative would leave a person without the resources to fund anything else.
                        The Rochdale pioneers had nothing like ten million euros/pounds/dollars yet they established a co-operative that within a matter of weeks was open five days a week.

                        Co-operatives are also successful in developing nations, particularly in helping women and also through promoting fair trade.


                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          Again that depends on what sort of society you wish to see thriving.



                          The Rochdale pioneers had nothing like ten million euros/pounds/dollars yet they established a co-operative that within a matter of weeks was open five days a week.

                          Co-operatives are also successful in developing nations, particularly in helping women and also through promoting fair trade.

                          In developing nations, it might be an option. However, it would also restrict the types of merchandise that could be produced.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            In developing nations, it might be an option.
                            It is an option in many developed nations as well

                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            However, it would also restrict the types of merchandise that could be produced.
                            Would that necessarily be a disadvantage? The concept of a mixed economy could be extended.

                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              Very much an option to establish a small project. Out of tiny acorns etc... How do you imagine the project at Rochdale in England started?

                              That is not how co-operatives work although some can be run for profit.

                              https://www.thebalancemoney.com/how-...-works-4800835

                              A cooperative (co-op) is a business or organization owned by and operated for the benefit of its members. Profits or earnings are distributed among its members. The co-op can be a for-profit business or a non-profit organization. The co-op runs similarly to a corporation, because members purchase shares and elect a board of directors and officers. It differs from a corporation because typically each member gets one vote. Members of a co-op can be individuals, families, businesses, farmers/ranchers, or manufacturers

                              Oh look, a joint-stock company. People coming together, pooling capital, and distributing profit to the members.
                              P1) If , then I win.

                              P2)

                              C) I win.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                                Oh look, a joint-stock company. People coming together, pooling capital, and distributing profit to the members.
                                Yup, and at inception, the weekly cost of joining the cooperative was only the same as two days (and a bit) production of bread (at selling price) for a single baker bakery; assuming that he had access to present-day equipment, that is.
                                Last edited by tabibito; 07-16-2023, 09:51 AM.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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