Were Jesus and the Baptist 'left wing' or 'right wing' ?

[eider]

Your question just shows how ignorant you are of Jesus and the bible.

Nice.....

Jesus was apolitical. What we call "left" or "right" didn't even exist in Jesus' time. Governments were not socialist or capitalist, they were monarchies and dictatorships for the most part. Greeks experimented with primitive democracy and Romans with a republic but even Rome had an authoritarian Emperor. Trying to shoehorn modern politics and economic systems into the ancient near east is just chrono-anachronistic.

And you think I am ignorant, eh?

The Baptist was offering cleansing and redemption (a feel-good factor for nothing, and thus cutting down temple takings.
Jesus was clearly seeking a more fair and less corrupt land.

The fact that Western and Eastern Aramaic didn't include your choice of words means nothing.

I think it is you who is ignorant.

[eider]

What you have "shown" was Jesus speaking to a particular man about his own condition, and taken out of context.

What you have shown me is that your ideas about Jesus are reshaped somewhat to fit your conservatism.
Not a true picture, I'm thinking.

[eider]

Verses of scripture taken out of context to support your own claim. How very clever.

Rubbish.
Jesus was speaking to ALL AROUND.

Mark {10:23} And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

Mark {10:24} And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! {10:25} It is
easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

You can take notice of what he said, or ignore it......... whatever you find to be convenient .

[Diogenes]

Rubbish.
Jesus was speaking to ALL AROUND.

Mark {10:23} And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

Mark {10:24} And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! {10:25} It is
easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

If a person puts their trust or confidence in riches, they're not putting their trust or confidence in God. The "eye of a needle" refers to the narrowness of the gates of the city walls. It would be easier for camel being used as a pack animal to be unloaded to fit into the gates than a greedy person or person who put their confidence in riches to go to heaven because they wouldn't divest themselves of their riches to put their trust in God.

To quote yourself:

You can take notice of what he said, or ignore it......... whatever you find to be convenient .

[tabibito]

If a person puts their trust or confidence in riches, they're not putting their trust or confidence in God.

Absolutely.

The "eye of a needle" refers to the narrowness of the gates of the city walls. It would be easier for camel being used as a pack animal to be unloaded to fit into the gates than a greedy person or person who put their confidence in riches to go to heaven because they wouldn't divest themselves of their riches to put their trust in God.

No supporting evidence for that assertion has been found anywhere in documents of the time. Surviving gates from the time do not give any cause for confidence in the assertion. The interpretation provided shows only an extreme difficulty, not an impossibility.

Matthew 19:25-26
25 shows that the disciples interpreted Jesus' comment to mean it would be impossible, and in verse 26 Jesus affirms that it is impossible by human effort alone.

To quote yourself:

You can take notice of what he said, or ignore it......... whatever you find to be convenient .

Previous exchanges indicate that he will ignore it.

[rogue06]

If a person puts their trust or confidence in riches, they're not putting their trust or confidence in God. The "eye of a needle" refers to the narrowness of the gates of the city walls. It would be easier for camel being used as a pack animal to be unloaded to fit into the gates than a greedy person or person who put their confidence in riches to go to heaven because they wouldn't divest themselves of their riches to put their trust in God.

To quote yourself:

This is like how so many people quote mine the Bible as saying "money is the root of all evil." The actual quote, from I Timothy 6:10, is

Scripture Verse:

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

© Copyright Original Source

[Cow Poke]

Rubbish.
Jesus was speaking to ALL AROUND.

Sometimes. Other times, he was speaking to individuals alone, or individuals with others standing around.

[Mark {10:23} And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

Yeah, not impossible - but difficult. No doubt, because of the pride and arrogance that goes with being rich. Not every rich person, however, is infected by that.

Mark {10:24} And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! {10:25} It is
easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Again, not impossible, but difficult.

You can take notice of what he said, or ignore it......... whatever you find to be convenient .

And you can pretend He said something He did not say.

[Cow Poke]

What you have shown me is that your ideas about Jesus are reshaped somewhat to fit your conservatism.
Not a true picture, I'm thinking.

Nope - I just have a higher regard for CONTEXT than you do, apparently.

[tabibito]

Yeah, not impossible - but difficult. No doubt, because of the pride and arrogance that goes with being rich. Not every rich person, however, is infected by that.



Again, not impossible, but difficult.

Given that all evidence suggests that "the eye of a needle" is exactly that, what phrases in English might be equivalent to “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle {than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
IMO -
"It is easier to fly by flapping your arms {etc."
"It is easier to outrun a galloping horse {etc."

The follow up: "it is impossible with humans but not with God;" means that God can make it happen, but humans cannot.

So then - what equivalent phrases would reduce the impossibility to a mere difficulty?

[Cow Poke]

Given that all evidence suggests that "the eye of a needle" is exactly that, what phrases in English might be equivalent to “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle {than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
IMO -
"It is easier to fly by flapping your arms {etc."
"It is easier to outrun a galloping horse {etc."

The follow up: "it is impossible with humans but not with God;" means that God can make it happen, but humans cannot.

EGGzackly - and we're talking about getting into Heaven --- which is totally impossible without God under any circumstances.

So then - what equivalent phrases would reduce the impossibility to a mere difficulty?

I believe it boils down to the inverse of what you mentioned -- "with God all things are possible" --- Salvation cannot happen without God.
The Jewish leaders of Jesus' day were teaching that wealth was proof of God's blessing, therefore, the wealthy (particularly the Jewish leaders) had it made.

So, let me ask you --- if there is a very wealthy person who is also very generous, you're claiming he or she can't get into Heaven?

[tabibito]

EGGzackly - and we're talking about getting into Heaven --- which is totally impossible without God under any circumstances.

Quite so - no-one can gain entry to heaven. Even the least of those in heaven was greater than John the Baptist.

I believe it boils down to the inverse of what you mentioned -- "with God all things are possible" --- Salvation cannot happen without God.
The Jewish leaders of Jesus' day were teaching that wealth was proof of God's blessing, therefore, the wealthy (particularly the Jewish leaders) had it made.

So, let me ask you --- if there is a very wealthy person who is also very generous, you're claiming he or she can't get into Heaven?

Quite so. Impossible to even (according to the teachings and beliefs of the time) those who manifestly had God's blessing, which is why the disciples evidenced such shock. If it was impossible for even the "most highly favoured of God" to enter heaven, what about the rest? According to Jesus - God makes it possible. It is the difference between gaining entry (can't be done) and being granted entry (God can do it).

[Sparko]

Nice.....


And you think I am ignorant, eh?

The Baptist was offering cleansing and redemption (a feel-good factor for nothing, and thus cutting down temple takings.
Jesus was clearly seeking a more fair and less corrupt land.

The fact that Western and Eastern Aramaic didn't include your choice of words means nothing.

I think it is you who is ignorant.

Look up the Dunning-Kruger effect. I believe you are suffering from a bad case of it.

[Cow Poke]

Quite so - no-one can gain entry to heaven. Even the least of those in heaven was greater than John the Baptist.

Quite so. Impossible to even (according to the teachings and beliefs of the time) those who manifestly had God's blessing, which is why the disciples evidenced such shock. If it was impossible for even the "most highly favoured of God" to enter heaven, what about the rest? According to Jesus - God makes it possible. It is the difference between gaining entry (can't be done) and being granted entry (God can do it).

I think we're in agreement, but I think you kinda skipped the part where I asked

So, let me ask you --- if there is a very wealthy person who is also very generous, you're claiming he or she can't get into Heaven?

I would hope you would agree that this person is also subject to the "with God all things are possible" exception.

[tabibito]

I think we're in agreement, but I think you kinda skipped the part where I asked

if there is a very wealthy person who is also very generous, you're claiming he or she can't get into Heaven?

Correct. Nor can a person who is blameless with regard to the law: the existence of such people being acknowledged by scripture. No-one earns the right to enter heaven: entry is only possible if the opportunity is granted, which brings us to the accurately stated exception that you stated (below).

I would hope you would agree that this person is also subject to the "with God all things are possible" exception.

The person cannot open the door, but the door can be opened for him by God.

[Sparko]

Correct. Nor can a person who is blameless with regard to the law: the existence of such people being acknowledged by scripture. No-one earns the right to enter heaven: entry is only possible if the opportunity is granted, which brings us to the accurately stated exception that you stated (below).

The person cannot open the door, but the door can be opened for him by God.

Yes.

Also the story of the rich young ruler explains the same thing. He was unwilling to give up his lifestyle and follow Jesus, even though he claimed to follow the law. His wealth kept him from choosing to follow Jesus. He trusted in wealth more than God.

There are plenty of wealthy people who did follow God in the bible, starting with Abraham. He was able to follow God and remained wealthy. In fact, it was God who made him wealthy.