Were Jesus and the Baptist 'left wing' or 'right wing' ?

[tabibito]

As I said, the bastardization resulted in something where the most Christian part of it was the name.

It was offered up as a way to try to convince various Church leaders that Nazism wasn't hostile to Christianity. Some even fell for it.

Some? Scant few didn't. The ones who didn't commonly wound up imprisoned or executed.

[rogue06]

Some? Scant few didn't. The ones who didn't commonly wound up imprisoned or executed.

Considering the numbers killed and imprisoned I'd say it was more than a scant few. There were barracks in concentration camps set aside for priests and ministers.

Part of the problem was that the mainline Protestant Church in Germany, the German Evangelical Church (which, IIRC, blended Lutheran, Reformed, and United traditions) were ripe for this sort of thing. They had a history of seeing themselves as a central pillar of both German culture and society, with a theologically grounded tradition of loyalty to the state. Many of its members found the concept of a Reich Church very attractive. Sounds like they strayed well away from focusing on preaching the Gospel message.

In reaction and in contrast, this resulted in the formation of the Bekennende Kirche (Confessing Church) which proclaimed that the church's proper allegiance was to God and scripture, not to the state and most certainly not to a worldly Führer.

Interestingly, both branches remained a part of the German Evangelical Church resulting in power struggles.

Looking at Wikipedia, it appears while the membership largely favored a Reich Church, the ministers were relatively evenly divided (at least prior to the war):

Number of Protestant pastors: 18,000

• Number of these strongly adhering to the "German Christian" church faction as of 1935: 3000
• Number of these strongly adhering to the "Confessing Church" church faction as of 1935: 3000

[alaskazimm]

This is like star's claim that Stalin is actually a right-winger because the left doesn't have dictatorial tyrants.

Indeed, if the Mosaic Law was really left wing, then the land owners would be handing over their entire crop harvest to the ruling class to be distributed as the ruling class saw fit. After taking the lion's share as "their cut" of course.

[eider]

Interesting. Rogue provided citations in support of his claims regarding Hitler's version of Christianity. You simply make a bare assertion that Rogue's account is wrong.

I'm not the least bity interested in rogue's ideas about Hitler, tabibito.
It was a complete deflection........ and if you think that Hitler supported any kind of Christianity (which his link denied!) then good luck to you.

[eider]

So by your definition, Fascism is Left-Wing. Edit: This would also stop Communism from being "Left-Wing".

Yet more redirection............ Again:- The Laws of Moses were written in order to produce a strong, collected, healthy and successful people, and that included all the people. If you can think of a law which does not support that then please show it. If you think that Fascism is/was like that then please show examples.

[tabibito]

I'm not the least bity interested in rogue's ideas about Hitler, tabibito.
It was a complete deflection........ and if you think that Hitler supported any kind of Christianity (which his link denied!) then good luck to you.

The claim to be Christian is no evidence that the person making the claim is Christian. It is a refreshing acknowledgement.

[eider]

That would describe (actual) Fascism for the most part as well as most systems. If your hang up is on "success for all", no system truly does that. Also, multiculturalism doesn't cause "cohesion". What you've described does not comport the modern Left.

Huh? The laws of Moses were quite clear that all the people would be supported. Success for all the people was the aim. Now if you can think of a law that didn't support this policy then show it.(see? policy=politics)

Yes, those are directions to the Israelites. The gleanings would be insubstantial to the landowner as scrap and subsistence to the poor in an agricultural society. It would be greedy to deny the poor their subsistence for what would be a minor profit to the landowner.

Good! So you understand that land was not wholly owned and people were free to roam, and glean as they pleased. Many businesses today are mirroring exactly this kind of policy and I guess I'm going to need to explain that to you....yes?

You've yet to detail how the Mosaic Law is applicable to non-Jews or even modern Jews. And England has been preventing gleanings since 1788 due to Steel v Houghton.

Because this thread is about Jesus and the Baptist.......... And because the OT laws have been referred to many times, and because Jesus wanted many of them to be brought in to practice (fulfilled) we find ourselves to be discussing them.

But you mention England, where trespass is still not a crime and where many businesses are changing policies which come very close to the gleaning laws of the old testament.

[rogue06]

I'm not the least bity interested in rogue's ideas about Hitler, tabibito.
It was a complete deflection........ and if you think that Hitler supported any kind of Christianity (which his link denied!) then good luck to you.

Coming from the clown who directly asked me

Oh yeah? What religion was Hitler trying to found?

[rogue06]

The claim to be Christian is no evidence that the person making the claim is Christian. It is a refreshing acknowledgement.

Hitler, like many of the Nazis, despised Christianity. But he knew it was too strong to go after directly so he instead sought to subvert and exploit it.

[rogue06]

But you mention England, where trespass is still not a crime and where many businesses are changing policies which come very close to the gleaning laws of the old testament.

FWICT, it is still illegal but typically a civil offense, yet it would seem that your example would be a criminal offense (at least according to claims.co.uk)

What is trespass to land?

Trespass to land is a civil wrong under the law of tort. Trespass is not, for the most part, a criminal offence. However, trespass on residential property which amounts to ‘squatting’ has been a criminal offence since 2012.

[Diogenes]

Huh? The laws of Moses were quite clear that all the people would be supported. Success for all the people was the aim. Now if you can think of a law that didn't support this policy then show it.(see? policy=politics)

The primary concern was spiritual success and being separated from the world as God's chosen people, something you quoted but seem to wish to ignore.

Good! So you understand that land was not wholly owned and people were free to roam, and glean as they pleased. Many businesses today are mirroring exactly this kind of policy and I guess I'm going to need to explain that to you....yes?

No where have you supported they were free to roam. Business giving away unsold food or farmers donating food that's commercially less viable is great. This is all charity, not forced by the government.

Because this thread is about Jesus and the Baptist.......... And because the OT laws have been referred to many times, and because Jesus wanted many of them to be brought in to practice (fulfilled) we find ourselves to be discussing them.

You have yet to support Jesus wanted a reestablishment of the Mosaic system. You've only shown your twisting of Scripture.

But you mention England, where trespass is still not a crime and where many businesses are changing policies which come very close to the gleaning laws of the old testament.

Gleaning from fields is illegal and I cited the court case, I spoke nothing of trespass. Businesses engaging in charity is not the same as gleaning.

[rogue06]

It's funny how liberals have trouble distinguishing between charity and socialism.

[Cow Poke]

It's funny how liberals have trouble distinguishing between charity and socialism.

Charity: I feel led to donate toward the needs of a neighbor, so I shall....
Socialism: I am going to force you to give what you earned to somebody who may or may not be in actual need.

[Cow Poke]

Yet more redirection............ Again:- The Laws of Moses were written in order to produce a strong, collected, healthy and successful people, and that included all the people.

Yeah, this is why God forbid intermarriage with other nations - them thar "other people" ..

Exodus 34:16 and you might take some of his daughters for your sons, and his daughters might play the harlot with their gods and cause your sons also to play the harlot with their gods.

Deuteronomy 7:3 Furthermore, you shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughters to their sons, nor shall you take their daughters for your sons.

Joshua 23:12 For if you ever go back and cling to the rest of these nations, these which remain among you, and intermarry with them, so that you associate with them and they with you,

1 Kings 11:2 from the nations concerning which the Lord had said to the sons of Israel, “You shall not associate with them, nor shall they associate with you, for they will surely turn your heart away after their gods.” Solomon held fast to these in love.

Ezra 9:12 So now do not give your daughters to their sons nor take their daughters to your sons, and never seek their peace or their prosperity, that you may be strong and eat the good things of the land and leave it as an inheritance to your sons forever.’

2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

Genesis 24:3 and I will make you swear by the Lord, the God of heaven and the God of earth, that you shall not take a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I live,

Genesis 24:37 My master made me swear, saying, ‘You shall not take a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, in whose land I live;

Genesis 28:1 So Isaac called Jacob and blessed him and charged him, and said to him, “You shall not take a wife from the daughters of Canaan.

Genesis 28:6-9 Now Esau saw that Isaac had blessed Jacob and sent him away to Paddan-aram to take to himself a wife from there, and that when he blessed him he charged him, saying, “You shall not take a wife from the daughters of Canaan,” and that Jacob had obeyed his father and his mother and had gone to Paddan-aram. So Esau saw that the daughters of Canaan displeased his father Isaac;read more.

Deuteronomy 7:4 For they will turn your sons away from following Me to serve other gods; then the anger of the Lord will be kindled against you and He will quickly destroy you.

Judges 14:3 Then his father and his mother said to him, “Is there no woman among the daughters of your relatives, or among all our people, that you go to take a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?” But Samson said to his father, “Get her for me, for she looks good to me.”

Ezra 9:14 shall we again break Your commandments and intermarry with the peoples who commit these abominations? Would You not be angry with us to the point of destruction, until there is no remnant nor any who escape?

Nehemiah 10:30 and that we will not give our daughters to the peoples of the land or take their daughters for our sons.

Numbers 36:3 But if they marry one of the sons of the other tribes of the sons of Israel, their inheritance will be withdrawn from the inheritance of our fathers and will be added to the inheritance of the tribe to which they belong; thus it will be withdrawn from our allotted inheritance.

Numbers 36:8 Every daughter who comes into possession of an inheritance of any tribe of the sons of Israel shall be wife to one of the family of the tribe of her father, so that the sons of Israel each may possess the inheritance of his fathers.

[rogue06]

Yeah, this is why God forbid intermarriage with other nations - them thar "other people" ..

Exodus 34:16 and you might take some of his daughters for your sons, and his daughters might play the harlot with their gods and cause your sons also to play the harlot with their gods.

Deuteronomy 7:3 Furthermore, you shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughters to their sons, nor shall you take their daughters for your sons.

Joshua 23:12 For if you ever go back and cling to the rest of these nations, these which remain among you, and intermarry with them, so that you associate with them and they with you,

1 Kings 11:2 from the nations concerning which the Lord had said to the sons of Israel, “You shall not associate with them, nor shall they associate with you, for they will surely turn your heart away after their gods.” Solomon held fast to these in love.

Ezra 9:12 So now do not give your daughters to their sons nor take their daughters to your sons, and never seek their peace or their prosperity, that you may be strong and eat the good things of the land and leave it as an inheritance to your sons forever.’

2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

Genesis 24:3 and I will make you swear by the Lord, the God of heaven and the God of earth, that you shall not take a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I live,

Genesis 24:37 My master made me swear, saying, ‘You shall not take a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, in whose land I live;

Genesis 28:1 So Isaac called Jacob and blessed him and charged him, and said to him, “You shall not take a wife from the daughters of Canaan.

Genesis 28:6-9 Now Esau saw that Isaac had blessed Jacob and sent him away to Paddan-aram to take to himself a wife from there, and that when he blessed him he charged him, saying, “You shall not take a wife from the daughters of Canaan,” and that Jacob had obeyed his father and his mother and had gone to Paddan-aram. So Esau saw that the daughters of Canaan displeased his father Isaac;read more.

Deuteronomy 7:4 For they will turn your sons away from following Me to serve other gods; then the anger of the Lord will be kindled against you and He will quickly destroy you.

Judges 14:3 Then his father and his mother said to him, “Is there no woman among the daughters of your relatives, or among all our people, that you go to take a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?” But Samson said to his father, “Get her for me, for she looks good to me.”

Ezra 9:14 shall we again break Your commandments and intermarry with the peoples who commit these abominations? Would You not be angry with us to the point of destruction, until there is no remnant nor any who escape?

Nehemiah 10:30 and that we will not give our daughters to the peoples of the land or take their daughters for our sons.

Numbers 36:3 But if they marry one of the sons of the other tribes of the sons of Israel, their inheritance will be withdrawn from the inheritance of our fathers and will be added to the inheritance of the tribe to which they belong; thus it will be withdrawn from our allotted inheritance.

Numbers 36:8 Every daughter who comes into possession of an inheritance of any tribe of the sons of Israel shall be wife to one of the family of the tribe of her father, so that the sons of Israel each may possess the inheritance of his fathers.

[eider mode] But what did the Baptist say.........[/eider mode]