Do Christian infants get to Heaven? Do all infants get to Heaven?

[tabibito]

I never said or implied that "people are free to take it on themselves to do what pleases them".

Either you believe that baptism is commanded, or you believe that the people can choose for themselves whether to be baptised or not. If baptism is commanded, not getting baptised would be wilful disobedience.

And, yes, Romans 10:9 does tell the whole story, as does John 3:16, and many other verses which explicitly state the basic requirements for salvation and don't say anything about baptism.

Romans 10:9 two things must be done to be saved (believe and confess) Romans 10:10 provides the explanation for what each of those things achieves - and, as elsewhere, faith is not listed as the thing that saves, though confession is (with whole of Bible context, just as one of a number of conditions). Nowhere does the Bible say that faith is what saves - the Bible does say that salvation is not possible without faith.

[Sparko]

Jesus said it, James said it, Paul said it. Your claims that they did not are most readily apparent in the denial that James said it: James was short, sharp, and direct.

Nowhere does anyone say that Baptism is a requirement for salvation. If it were so, again, the thief on the cross would not be saved. And those in Acts 10 would not have received the gift of the Holy Spirit until after they were baptized.

Salvation is the gift of God, it is not a result of works. True enough. God's grace is what saves. True enough. It is not granted because of anything a person has done. True enough.

Then Baptism doesn't save because that is a work.

I never claimed that works will save anyone. I do state that if a person lacks works in keeping with repentance, he will forfeit salvation

I disagree with you there. What about someone who is paralyzed and can't speak who accepts Jesus? What works can he do to stay saved?

Primarily good works are a matter of cleaning up one's own act. Or are you going to tell a prostitute or thief that they believe in Christ so they're saved: they don't have to change their lifestyles? Even you don't believe that works are not necessary, despite your mindless and uncritical acceptance of preaching to the contrary.

Again, if they don't show repentance and good works then that probably means they weren't saved in the first place. A prostitute who claims to accept Christ but doesn't stop prostituting was probably lying about being saved or paying lip service to Jesus without meaning it. Works are a result of salvation, not a cause of it.

[Mountain Man]

Either you believe that baptism is commanded, or you believe that the people can choose for themselves whether to be baptised or not. If baptism is commanded, not getting baptised would be wilful disobedience.



Romans 10:9 two things must be done to be saved (believe and confess) Romans 10:10 provides the explanation for what each of those things achieves - and, as elsewhere, faith is not listed as the thing that saves, though confession is (with whole of Bible context, just as one of a number of conditions). Nowhere does the Bible say that faith is what saves - the Bible does say that salvation is not possible without faith.

Of course not being baptized would be disobedient. I never suggested otherwise, but being disobedient doesn't nullify one's salvation. If someone is saved, then they should want to obey, and a refusal to stop sinning could indicate a lack of salvation, but that's a lot different than saying that baptism is necessary for salvation. As Paul says of the disobedient Christian at the Final Judgement:

Scripture Verse: 1 Corinthians 3

If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

© Copyright Original Source

[tabibito]

Nowhere does anyone say that Baptism is a requirement for salvation. If it were so, again, the thief on the cross would not be saved. And those in Acts 10 would not have received the gift of the Holy Spirit until after they were baptized.

Using that logic, you don't have to receive the Holy Spirit to be saved.
1/ As stated, the idea that the thief had never been baptised is pure supposition. 2/ Assuming that the thief had not been baptised, he did not have the opportunity to be baptised. 3/Baptism is not something you do (unless you are officiating), it is something that gets done to you. 4/ Jesus declared that it necessary to be born of water and the Spirit. 5/ Jesus stated that salvation is available to those who do the will of God. Peter stated that God

Then Baptism doesn't save because that is a work.

You are not saved by works, nor by baptism, nor by belief. One out of three won't get you saved. The first step in salvation is repentance - which is a work.

I disagree with you there. What about someone who is paralyzed and can't speak who accepts Jesus? What works can he do to stay saved?

The scriptures list requirements for those who have the opportunity to meet those requirements. They do not address circumstances where opportunities don't exist. In all ordinary circumstances a person is required to be baptised, and confess Christ as Lord. Why introduce an overly legalistic interpretation of the scripture?

[quote]Again, if they don't show repentance and good works then that probably means they weren't saved in the first place.

Repentance IS something you do. The moment you claim that repentance is necessary, you acknowledge that at least that one work is necessary. The fact that repentance involves a change of mind and of actions, a turning away from the former way of life to serve (serving is something you do) God: that fact involves other works, like giving up a life of sin. That too is a work. "Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning" is not a suggestion, it is a command.

A prostitute who claims to accept Christ but doesn't stop prostituting was probably lying about being saved or paying lip service to Jesus without meaning it.

After someone has told her that she doesn't need to do anything to be saved? Her sin will be on her - and the people who informed her that she did not need to do anything will pay the penalty for their part in her sin - but you have just admitted that believers are required to set about stopping their own sins. Or do you perhaps think that only some sins are sins?

Works are a result of salvation, not a cause of it.

Faith is perfected, brought to maturity, by works. "By works you are saved and not by faith alone" is either scripture or it is not.

[tabibito]

Of course not being baptized would be disobedient. I never suggested otherwise, but being disobedient doesn't nullify one's salvation.

What? Hebrews 3:18, Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-8, Romans 2:13

If someone is saved, then they should want to obey, and a refusal to stop sinning could indicate a lack of salvation, but that's a lot different than saying that baptism is necessary for salvation. As Paul says of the disobedient Christian at the Final Judgement:

You have just been claiming, and quite stridently, that setting about stopping your own sins is not required.

Scripture Verse: 1 Corinthians 3

If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

© Copyright Original Source

That is not a verse you should be quoting.

[Mountain Man]

What? Hebrews 3:18, Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-8, Romans 2:13



You have just been claiming, and quite stridently, that setting about stopping your own sins is not required.



That is not a verse you should be quoting.

I have not "stridently" claimed anything. I have said that a Christian should desire to stop sinning, but even then, 1 Corinthians 3 makes it clear -- and I have no idea why you think I shouldn't be quoting it -- that even a disobedient Christian will still be saved, but only by the proverbial skin of his teeth.

As for the verses you cite, they don't contradict 1 Corinthians 3. That Christians desire to stop sinning and yet continue to sin is conundrum explored in Romans 7.

[tabibito]

I have not "stridently" claimed anything. I have said that a Christian should desire to stop sinning,

Ah - so he should have at least the desire to do works. Who is the "you" in Romans 8:12-14?

but even then, 1 Corinthians 3 makes it clear -- and I have no idea why you think I shouldn't be quoting it -- that even a disobedient Christian will still be saved, but only by the proverbial skin of his teeth.

The reason you shouldn't be quoting it is that the people concerned DO have works. Nothing in that verse points to a disobedient Christian.

As for the verses you cite, they don't contradict 1 Corinthians 3. That Christians desire to stop sinning and yet continue to sin is conundrum explored in Romans 7.

And the solution to the conundrum is provided in Romans 8:4 Romans 8:8-9 (in fact the whole chapter.) Romans 6 likewise, particularly Romans 6:17-19, paying particular attention to verse 18

[Sparko]

Using that logic, you don't have to receive the Holy Spirit to be saved.
1/ As stated, the idea that the thief had never been baptised is pure supposition. 2/ Assuming that the thief had not been baptised, he did not have the opportunity to be baptised. 3/Baptism is not something you do (unless you are officiating), it is something that gets done to you. 4/ Jesus declared that it necessary to be born of water and the Spirit. 5/ Jesus stated that salvation is available to those who do the will of God. Peter stated that God



You are not saved by works, nor by baptism, nor by belief. One out of three won't get you saved. The first step in salvation is repentance - which is a work.



The scriptures list requirements for those who have the opportunity to meet those requirements. They do not address circumstances where opportunities don't exist. In all ordinary circumstances a person is required to be baptised, and confess Christ as Lord. Why introduce an overly legalistic interpretation of the scripture?

Again, if they don't show repentance and good works then that probably means they weren't saved in the first place.

Repentance IS something you do. The moment you claim that repentance is necessary, you acknowledge that at least that one work is necessary. The fact that repentance involves a change of mind and of actions, a turning away from the former way of life to serve (serving is something you do) God: that fact involves other works, like giving up a life of sin. That too is a work. "Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning" is not a suggestion, it is a command.



After someone has told her that she doesn't need to do anything to be saved? Her sin will be on her - and the people who informed her that she did not need to do anything will pay the penalty for their part in her sin - but you have just admitted that believers are required to set about stopping their own sins. Or do you perhaps think that only some sins are sins?

Repentance is not a work. It's a commitment. It's NOT doing something that you were doing previously. It is saying you are sorry and not doing it any more. And even then most of us still slip up and do things we know we should not. As Paul said,

Romans 7:15 For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.

Faith/belief is how you get saved. God can't/won't save you unless you ask him to, and to ask him, you have to believe that you are a sinner and need saving. And that is not a work, that is faith.

Faith is perfected, brought to maturity, by works. "By works you are saved and not by faith alone" is either scripture or it is not.

It is NOT scripture. Are you just making up bible verses now???

[tabibito]

Repentance is not a work. It's a commitment. It's NOT doing something that you were doing previously.

It is a turning away from one's former ways. However you phrase it, you must do something.

It is saying you are sorry and not doing it any more. And even then most of us still slip up and do things we know we should not. As Paul said,

Quitting a habit is something you do, and saying you are sorry is something that you do. It is also made quite clear that purifying one's self is not a quick or painless process.

Romans 7:15 For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.

Yes, I know what Romans 7 says. Right at the end, "Who will save me from this body of sin and death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord." And it continues through Romans 8, with Romans 8:3-4 showing that the righteous requirement of the law can be fulfilled in us who walk not by the flesh but by the Spirit. Perhaps Christians are not expected to walk by the Spirit?
The concept continues through chapter 8, with Romans 8:13 stating that if you live by the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live. In 1John3:2-3 it is stated that everyone who has the hope of seeing Christ just as he is will purify himself.

Faith/belief is how you get saved. God can't/won't save you unless you ask him to, and to ask him, you have to believe that you are a sinner and need saving. And that is not a work, that is faith.

Actually no. The thing that saves is grace, not faith.

It is NOT scripture. Are you just making up bible verses now???

My mistake - it's actually justified by works and not by faith alone. But then again, faith likewise doesn't save, it only justifies.

[Sparko]

It is a turning away from one's former ways. However you phrase it, you must do something.



Quitting a habit is something you do, and saying you are sorry is something that you do. It is also made quite clear that purifying one's self is not a quick or painless process.



Yes, I know what Romans 7 says. Right at the end, "Who will save me from this body of sin and death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord." And it continues through Romans 8, with Romans 8:3-4 showing that the righteous requirement of the law can be fulfilled in us who walk not by the flesh but by the Spirit. Perhaps Christians are not expected to walk by the Spirit?
The concept continues through chapter 8, with Romans 8:13 stating that if you live by the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live. In 1John3:2-3 it is stated that everyone who has the hope of seeing Christ just as he is will purify himself.



Actually no. The thing that saves is grace, not faith.



My mistake - it's actually justified by works and not by faith alone. But then again, faith likewise doesn't save, it only justifies.

The point Paul made was that it was his old flesh sinning, and not the new person he has become. His spirit wants to follow and obey but his sinful flesh drags him back into sin and disobedience. So if obedience is a requirement like you keep saying, then Paul was not saved. And that spirit that he walks in is the HOLY Spirit. That you get when you are saved. Baptized by the Holy Spirit. Before you are baptized in water.

I feel we are just going in circles at this point. I don't really feel like arguing that same thing over and over. You are welcome to believe whatever you want, Tab, no matter how wrong you are

[Mountain Man]

Ah - so he should have at least the desire to do works. Who is the "you" in Romans 8:12-14?



The reason you shouldn't be quoting it is that the people concerned DO have works. Nothing in that verse points to a disobedient Christian.



And the solution to the conundrum is provided in Romans 8:4 Romans 8:8-9 (in fact the whole chapter.) Romans 6 likewise, particularly Romans 6:17-19, paying particular attention to verse 18

I Corinthians 3 describes each person's works being tested at the Final Judgment. The person whose works are consumed by fire and is left with nothing, who did no lasting works for Christ, can not reasonably be inferred to have been an obedient Christian who did as God commanded. Paul says that person will nevertheless be saved, but just barely.

[tabibito]

I Corinthians 3 describes each person's works being tested at the Final Judgment. The person whose works are consumed by fire and is left with nothing, who did no lasting works for Christ, can not reasonably be inferred to have been an obedient Christian who did as God commanded. Paul says that person will nevertheless be saved, but just barely.

Yet the works were laid on the foundation of Christ, some of gold or precious stone, some of wood or hay. Even if the idea that the works of wood or hay are in fact works of disobedience was a reasonable inference, the fact remains that sound doctrine is not built on what might be inferred. What is to become of people who falsely claim to follow Christ is made plain: they are workers of unrighteousness to whom it will be said, "away from me."

[eider]

A bad joke: as the idea of God decided before creation who would be saved and who wouldn't - worse than a bad or sick joke.

Paul spoke of believers being predestined. He didn't speak of a select group being predestined to become believers and therefore saved.

Thanks for that, tabibito.

As I said, much that Jesus had to say on the issue was couched in parables. The wedding feast parable is instructive (Matthew 22: 2-14), but seldom is any attention paid to vv 11-13.

Matthew {22:11} And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: {22:12} And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. {22:13} Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of
teeth. {22:14} For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

How sad is that! This parable tells me that Jesus was having a lot of fun, either that or the story was made up. A King who needed to send out for anybody to attend an important wedding had very few friends, and then to use violence upon an invitee because he was not dressed for a wedding.......... ? This poor unfortunate man was not being kicked out heaven, but out of hell, methinks.

The honest answer is - we don't know. What the Bible says about young children doesn't provide any information about dead children. The only thing that can be stated with certainty is that a person is not held accountable for sins that he has not personally committed - so, whatever the outcome for young children who die, hell isn't their destination.

The gospel's intended audience does not include children. Even Jesus' comments about children are directed to adults, not to children.

Doctrines established by people who did not balk at using slander, sword and club, and fist and boot will bear no more than a superficial semblance of Christian teaching at best.

I think that some members here could be 'sword and club' Christians.
I think that the Jewish 'hell' was in fact 'the grave', and I think Jesus's heaven was a fair land with provision for all.

[eider]

I Corinthians 3 describes each person's works being tested at the Final Judgment. The person whose works are consumed by fire and is left with nothing, who did no lasting works for Christ, can not reasonably be inferred to have been an obedient Christian who did as God commanded. Paul says that person will nevertheless be saved, but just barely.

Here ^^^^ a clear and concise exhibit to show that many Christians follow what Paul writes, rather than what Jesus said and did.

[tabibito]

Matthew {22:11} And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: {22:12} And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. {22:13} Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of
teeth. {22:14} For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

How sad is that! This parable tells me that Jesus was having a lot of fun, either that or the story was made up. A King who needed to send out for anybody to attend an important wedding had very few friends, and then to use violence upon an invitee because he was not dressed for a wedding.......... ? This poor unfortunate man was not being kicked out heaven, but out of hell, methinks.

The basis for many of Jesus' parables are easily traceable to historic events or familiar events in general society, but this particular parable does seem to have been made up whole cloth.
The wedding clothes represent holiness. The person who was ejected represents people who accept the invitation to be saved but refuse clean up their acts. It would be a rare preacher who would be game enough to base a sermon on that part of the parable.