Do Christian infants get to Heaven? Do all infants get to Heaven?

[Mountain Man]

The claim that baptism is an essential for salvation is correct, but that essential might apply only to people who are able to receive and assimilate the message.

If baptism is necessary for salvation, then Jesus lied to the thief next to him on the cross.

[Diogenes]

Baptism was the means of initiation into Paul's religion.

Outward initiation is not the same as salvation. You seem to have difficulties with basic Christianity.

[Diogenes]

Definitely.

So when Paul stated people were saved by grace and not of works, he was wrong?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Outward initiation is not the same as salvation. You seem to have difficulties with basic Christianity.

Baptism was an initiation into the cult.

For Paul salvation came through a belief in his ideas about his Christ Jesus.

[Diogenes]

Baptism was an initiation into the cult.

For Paul salvation came through a belief in his ideas about his Christ Jesus.

Thank you for conceding that the act of baptism is separate and distinct from belief in Jesus, ergo baptism itself is not salvific.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Thank you for conceding that the act of baptism is separate and distinct from belief in Jesus, ergo baptism itself is not salvific.

I do not have to concede anything as I am not the one who has claimed that baptism = salvation.

[tabibito]

If baptism is necessary for salvation, then Jesus lied to the thief next to him on the cross.

My statement is that baptism is necessary for salvation in all ordinary circumstances. Be kind enough to acknowledge that I have not said only that baptism is required.
Jesus commanded that baptism be conducted and taught. Peter declared that baptism saves, and the Koine Greek makes it crystal clear that the baptism in question is water baptism.
Paul said that people who have been baptised have put on Christ. In Acts, it is stated that baptism into Christ is not the same as baptism in the Spirit.
I am not inclined to set aside the explicit statements of scripture because a single given text might possibly be inferred to indicate otherwise.
That thief died before the New Covenant had been instituted. Baptism was not a requirement of the Old Covenant.

[tabibito]

Even your own source says that it is talking about a state of sin, disobedience in the form of rejection of salvation, not someone who already belongs to Jesus who then disobeys him. It is contrasting accepting Jesus and being save versus rejecting him and remaining lost in sin.

πιστευειν means faith, either as (Hebrew: aman) believe or as (Hebrew: emunah) be trustworthy: there are occasions when either will take the alternative meaning.
By way of contrast, listed below, all the conjugations of απειθειν that occur in the Old Testament, together with the words they translate and the definitions of those words. Not one of them comes anywhere close to meaning belief.

LXX:　απειθειν Jer 22:35 (שָׁכַח forget, disregard);　απειθων Ezkl 3:27 (חָדֵל cease, end, forbear, resist, forsake);　απειθει Exds 3:21 (אַל ־ שָׁמַע not heed); Nmbr 20:10, Deut 21: 20 (מָרָה bitter, rebellious [ones]); Isah 7:16 (מָאַס - [v.t.]spurn, [v.i.] disappear);　απειθεις Nmbr 20:10, (מָרָה bitter ✧ rebellious [ones]), Isah 36:5 (מָרַד - to rebel);　απειθηση Josh 1:18 (מָרָה bitter ✧ rebellious [ones]);　απειθησητε Lvtc 26:15 (מָאַס - [v.t.]spurn, [v.i.] disappear);　απειθης Deut 21:18, Jerm 5:23 (מָרָה - rebel ✧ bitter); Isah 30:9 (מְרִי - rebellion ✧ bitterness);　απειθουντες Numb 14:43 (שׁוּב - turn away.back, retreat ✧ again); Deut 9:7, 24; Isah 3:8 (מָרָה - bitter ✧ rebellious [one]); Pslm 68:18; Hosa 9:15 (סָרַר - turn away, rebellious);　απειθουσιν Isah 1:23 (סָרַר - turn away, rebel); Isah 8:11 (-); Isah 66:14 (אֹיֵב [?] - adversary)；　απειθουντα Nehm 9:29 (לֹא שָׁמַע - not heed); Isah 1:25 (-); Isah 65:2 (סָרַר - turn away, rebel);　απειθουντας Isah 1:25 (שׁוּב - turn away.back, retreat ✧ again);　απειθουντας Isah 1:25 (שׁוּב - turn away.back, retreat ✧ again);　απειθησαντες Josh 5:6 (לֹא שָׁמַע - not heed);　απειθη Zech 7:12 (שָׁמַע - heed *lest they heed*);　απειθησης Prvb 24:21(אַל־ תִּתְעָרָֽב - not associate, mingle);　απειθουντων Isah 33:2 (-);　απειθησης Prvb 24:21(אַל־ תִּתְעָרָֽב - not associate, mingle).

There seems to be no evidence supporting the definition of απειθειν as "not believe." Unless evidence is provided, where the definition is underpinned by an actual example of a use that is unambiguously belief, there is no basis for accepting "not believe" as a valid translation of απειθειν.

John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey** the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” [NASB] (**or even as the NIV has it, "rejects," would a reasonable choice.)

Pisteuo can mean be loyal or commit so, to preserve the contrast that is obviously intended, it would be better to render pisteuo as a more suitable term that is within the range of meanings for pisteuo, rather than to impose a non existent meaning on apeithein.

[eider]

Predestined only means you have bought the ticket: you're not even on the plane yet. Grace is extended to those who do what is right (Acts 10:34-35). Good works are useful, but by themselves not enough to secure salvation; likewise belief.

I don't think that Jesus mentioned any of this........ predestination (ticket holders) is a bad joke at best, wasn't that some idea of Paul's?
And not much from Jesus comes out of Acts..........

So far I cannot find any church that insists that all children go to heaven, not even Christian children.
For example, I don't think that the Watchtower does either, a JW elder on another forum has told me that: ...... absolutely, infants do not get in to heaven!
Nobody seems to have paid much attention for infants in heaven.

If by any chance a system was being introduced for controlling the masses with the fear of eternal torture (the Romans could only manage a three-day version of this) then I don't suppose that there would be any need to focus too much upon babies.

[eider]

What specific bible text makes reference to infant baptism? And as you have noted, does any of it really matter?

No, it didn't matter....... and two millennia later there's still not much provision for infants in any heaven.
But there wouldn't be.... would there?

If you wanted a system of control for the masses, together with the carrot of eternal joy for obedience and eternal agony for any disobedience, then you wouldn't need to include much about infants. Infants weren't a problem, it was adults who you needed to turn and hold.

And so, although Jesus seemed to put infants first, the followers must have lost interest.


Mark {7:27} But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled:

Mark { {9:37} Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me:

Mark ]{10:14} .......Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

[eider]

In forming my view of Christianity, I don't particularly care what ideas Christians have but rather what best conforms to the Bible (including arguments for which canon to be used). Works obviously aren't salvific but are rather fruit of the Holy Spirit. I do think that predestination is biblical but I don't believe humans can know who are among those predestined.

If that is correct, then humans could not be coerced in to any kind of submission within any system.
The promise of eternal joy to those who would believe and obey, as contrasted with the threat of eternal agony for those who didn't....... clearly this was all about acceptance and obedience.

Quite obviously God would not be beholden to any of my opinions. The idea of Heaven being some kind of reward for a life on Earth and therefore could be earned or deserved is quite erroneous in regard to Christianity and, in a more general sense, mostly an existential coping mechanism.

I don't think so.......... just look at what happened to those who misbehaved in past eras..... definitely 'heaven' was for those who believed and obeyed, ghastly ends for those who threatened the status quo.

And you are most fortunate to be free of such shackles!

[tabibito]

I don't think that Jesus mentioned any of this........ predestination (ticket holders) is a bad joke at best,

A bad joke: as the idea of God decided before creation who would be saved and who wouldn't - worse than a bad or sick joke.

wasn't that some idea of Paul's?

Paul spoke of believers being predestined. He didn't speak of a select group being predestined to become believers and therefore saved.

And not much from Jesus comes out of Acts..........

As I said, much that Jesus had to say on the issue was couched in parables. The wedding feast parable is instructive (Matthew 22: 2-14), but seldom is any attention paid to vv 11-13.

So far I cannot find any church that insists that all children go to heaven, not even Christian children. For example, I don't think that the Watchtower does either, a JW elder on another forum has told me that: ...... absolutely, infants do not get in to heaven!

The honest answer is - we don't know. What the Bible says about young children doesn't provide any information about dead children. The only thing that can be stated with certainty is that a person is not held accountable for sins that he has not personally committed - so, whatever the outcome for young children who die, hell isn't their destination.

Nobody seems to have paid much attention for infants in heaven.

The gospel's intended audience does not include children. Even Jesus' comments about children are directed to adults, not to children.

If by any chance a system was being introduced for controlling the masses with the fear of eternal torture (the Romans could only manage a three-day version of this) then I don't suppose that there would be any need to focus too much upon babies.

Doctrines established by people who did not balk at using slander, sword and club, and fist and boot will bear no more than a superficial semblance of Christian teaching at best.

[Mountain Man]

My statement is that baptism is necessary for salvation in all ordinary circumstances. Be kind enough to acknowledge that I have not said only that baptism is required.
Jesus commanded that baptism be conducted and taught. Peter declared that baptism saves, and the Koine Greek makes it crystal clear that the baptism in question is water baptism.
Paul said that people who have been baptised have put on Christ. In Acts, it is stated that baptism into Christ is not the same as baptism in the Spirit.
I am not inclined to set aside the explicit statements of scripture because a single given text might possibly be inferred to indicate otherwise.
That thief died before the New Covenant had been instituted. Baptism was not a requirement of the Old Covenant.

If there are exceptions, then it's not necessary. Baptism is an act of obedience following salvation, but it is not necessary for salvation.

Scripture Verse: Romans 10

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

© Copyright Original Source

[tabibito]

If there are exceptions, then it's not necessary. Baptism is an act of obedience following salvation, but it is not necessary for salvation.

No - that God chooses to make allowances for circumstances does NOT mean that a people are free to take it on themselves to do what pleases them.

Scripture Verse: Romans 10

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

© Copyright Original Source

Ah yes Romans 10:9-10. Verse 9 doesn't tell the whole story though, does it? Verse 10 states that confession leads to salvation. Believing leads to righteousness.

Paul's statement is that confession is necessary for salvation. Be kind enough to acknowledge that Paul has not said only that belief is required.

[Mountain Man]

No - that God chooses to make allowances for circumstances does NOT mean that a people are free to take it on themselves to do what pleases them.



Ah yes Romans 10:9-10. Verse 9 doesn't tell the whole story though, does it? Verse 10 states that confession leads to salvation. Believing leads to righteousness.

Paul's statement is that confession is necessary for salvation. Be kind enough to acknowledge that Paul has not said only that belief is required.

I never said or implied that "people are free to take it on themselves to do what pleases them".

And, yes, Romans 10:9 does tell the whole story, as does John 3:16, and many other verses which explicitly state the basic requirements for salvation and don't say anything about baptism.