Plantinga Changed His Mind

[OingoBoingo]

Testing evolution is a form of questioning it. Hypothesis is usually followed by action.

I'm not sure what hypotheses you and Plantinga are referring to that have received scorn and prevented further illuminating research. Can you give an example?

You can take the you in "what hypotheses you and Plantinga are referring to" out of your above equation. Its Plantinga that thinks that the theory of evolution has an idol-like place in academia. I haven't stated my opinion.

Can I give any examples about the scorn received? Not really. If I had to take a guess the scorn shown the ID movement might be an example.

Nope. Anyone who questions evolution without proposing a testable alternative is met with scorn. That would be DI.

Well there you go.

I find his jumping the gun problematic. First, ID must bring the data, then complaints of being treated unfairly will have merit. See bacterial flagellum.

That's nice.

[whag]

I believe he was waiting for Behe to propose hypothesis and theories for further illuminating research. I hope he was not holding his breath.

I wonder what OB and Plantinga find so objectionable about non-overlapping magesteria. Surely that would answer why "Origins of Life from a Christian Perspective" isn't on Oxford's spring schedule.

[OingoBoingo]

Since the ToE only applies to the nature of the physical existence through Methodological Naturalism.

I don't think Plantinga believes you need Methodological Naturalism to get the ToE. And to be honest, I've never heard anyone outside of you say that MN is a requirement of getting to the ToE.

How could a challenge outside science be relevant to the science of evolution?

Well, that's the thing. Plantinga doesn't think science need be limited to MN. If you remove MN from the investigations of science then you don't have to worry about "a challenge outside science".

[OingoBoingo]

I wonder what OB

Stop trolling.

[whag]

You can take the you in "what hypotheses you and Plantinga are referring to" out of your above equation. Its Plantinga that thinks that the theory of evolution has an idol-like place in academia. I haven't stated my opinion.

So you just repeated his position that I already summarized?

Can I give any examples about the scorn received? Not really. If I had to take a guess the scorn shown the ID movement might be an example.

That's not an example. ID invited its scorn by coming to the table without a testable alternative and demanding equal airtime. Remember that Plantinga quote you provided where he said testing ID concepts is "dubious"?

[whag]

Stop trolling.

Start contributing.

[OingoBoingo]

So you just repeated his position that I already summarized?

I don't know, maybe. I'm not really sure what you're problem is. You replied to my post #27 which was created to clarify something that shunyadragon said in his post #24. If you stated what I stated before that, then apparently shunyadragon missed it, or misunderstood it.

That's not an example.

Well, then, if that example doesn't work, then I can't give you one.

ID invited its scorn by coming to the table without a testable alternative and demanding equal airtime. Remember that Plantinga quote you provided where he said testing ID concepts is "dubious"?

Well that's probably the problem then. You want a particular type of example of scorn towards those those who question ToE, and (taking a wild guess here) Plantinga is referring to a much more vague scorn towards anyone who questions ToE. But, you know, I can't read his mind on that. I don't know if he takes email, but maybe if you write him...

[OingoBoingo]

Start contributing.

Got it. The posts I've already created are not welcome in this thread. Well, toodles then.

[whag]

I don't know, maybe. I'm not really sure what you're problem is. You replied to my post #27 which was created to clarify something that shunyadragon said in his post #24. If you stated what I stated before that, then apparently shunyadragon missed it, or misunderstood you

When you said "there are no challenges to evolution within academia" that prompted my response. It's a meaningless charge because it presumes daily testing within academia isn't a form of daily questioning. =/

[Juvenal]

Laughter is the intelligent response to that statement you made.

On the contrary, an intelligent response would include counter-examples.

[OingoBoingo]

When you said "there are no challenges to evolution within academia" that prompted my response. It's a meaningless charge because it presumes daily testing within academia isn't a form of daily questioning. =/

That's Plantinga's position. I haven't opined mine. Do I need a larger font to spell that out for you?

[whag]

That's Plantinga's position. I haven't opined mine. Do I need a larger font to spell that out for you?

We already know Plantinga's position! We're the ones who told you about it.

You've previously stated this is "guilt by association" and "misrepresentation." It is, in fact, neither.

[OingoBoingo]

We already know Plantinga's position! We're the ones who told you about it.

I stated in post #18
"As a philosopher and a thinker, he can make philosophical arguments, like...Is the theory of evolution (no matter one's views on it) an untouchable and unquestionable idol within academia? Should it be?"

shunyadragon replied to me in post #21
"Evolution and other scientific hypothesis have never been untouchable and unquestionable idols within Scientific academia."

Paprika replied with laughy faces.

shunyadragon replied to Paprika saying,
"If you feel there are challenges to evolution 'within scientific academia' please cite them."

I attempted to point out to shunyadragon that Plantinga's real issue seems to be that he believes that no one is allowed to questions ToE without scorn, and so a challenge cannot be made.

That's Plantinga's view. Not one I've opined. So, no, that and other posts lead me to believe that shunyadragon doesn't know Plantinga's position, or, at best, understands only a bit of it.

Aaaand I've known about Plantinga's views before meeting you on this web forum. Pretty sure I mentioned that before.

[shunyadragon]

I stated in post #18
"As a philosopher and a thinker, he can make philosophical arguments, like...Is the theory of evolution (no matter one's views on it) an untouchable and unquestionable idol within academia? Should it be?"

shunyadragon replied to me in post #21
"Evolution and other scientific hypothesis have never been untouchable and unquestionable idols within Scientific academia."

Incomplete quote.

Paprika replied with laughy faces.

. . . lao tzu responded appropriately.

Laughter is the intelligent response to that statement you made.

On the contrary, an intelligent response would include counter-examples.

shunyadragon replied to Paprika saying,
"If you feel there are challenges to evolution 'within scientific academia' please cite them."

I attempted to point out to shunyadragon that Plantinga's real issue seems to be that he believes that no one is allowed to questions ToE without scorn, and so a challenge cannot be made.

That's Plantinga's view. Not one I've opined. So, no, that and other posts lead me to believe that shunyadragon doesn't know Plantinga's position, or, at best, understands only a bit of it.

Bad attempt and did not address the problem. ID does not challenge the Theory of Evolution, because it offers no falsifiable Hypothesis nor theories.

Aaaand I've known about Plantinga's views before meeting you on this web forum. Pretty sure I mentioned that before.

Does not help. . .

[whag]

I stated in post #18
"As a philosopher and a thinker, he can make philosophical arguments, like...Is the theory of evolution (no matter one's views on it) an untouchable and unquestionable idol within academia? Should it be?"

shunyadragon replied to me in post #21
"Evolution and other scientific hypothesis have never been untouchable and unquestionable idols within Scientific academia."

Paprika replied with laughy faces.

shunyadragon replied to Paprika saying,
"If you feel there are challenges to evolution 'within scientific academia' please cite them."

I attempted to point out to shunyadragon that Plantinga's real issue seems to be that he believes that no one is allowed to questions ToE without scorn, and so a challenge cannot be made.

Fair enough, but could you admit misunderstanding, as well?

I've known about Plantinga's views before meeting you on this web forum. Pretty sure I mentioned that before.

Nope. What you did was provide one quote from Plantinga saying ID research is "dubious" while ignoring the history of his support for it, which tends to undermine your quote.