Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Did Christianity lose its way?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • eider
    replied
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    FWIW, a quick-and-dirty search for "the Way" (capitalized like that). Of course, decisions about what should be Capitalized in English are quite subjective.

    The relevant citations seem to be Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 24:14, 22; and possibly Amos 8:14.
    All from Paul.....none from Jesus?
    I haven't even reached Jesus yet.

    Leave a comment:


  • eider
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Way (pun intended) to miss the entire point of the New Testament and Christianity.
    I haven't even got as far as Jesus yet, and Christianity is hours of work away.

    Leave a comment:


  • eider
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Here's another word on which to focus: covenant
    I have been writing about that. But you have not seen, maybe?

    Leave a comment:


  • eider
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Given your mastery of eisegesis, I'm not sure that you are the one who should be doing this.
    But I am the one who is doing this. I've never seen any such examination from you.

    Leave a comment:


  • eider
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    We are New Testament Christians, and all of your references are OT. And John the Baptist, though he appears in the NT, is the last of the OT Prophets.
    He declared that Jesus is the Christ - kinda making the transition from OT to NT.
    But, I see you're moving on to the NT, so...
    My journey began back in the OT, and verses about the way and paths written in the OT were called out by the Baptist in the NT............ so the words and terms are connected.
    The Baptist seems to have meant what those from before meant.
    I'll do my best to finish the presentation later.

    Leave a comment:


  • NorrinRadd
    replied
    FWIW, a quick-and-dirty search for "the Way" (capitalized like that). Of course, decisions about what should be Capitalized in English are quite subjective.

    The relevant citations seem to be Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 24:14, 22; and possibly Amos 8:14.

    Leave a comment:


  • NorrinRadd
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    In fact, word has it that obedience is better than sacrifice! (I read that somewhere)
    So is mercy, per Matt. 9:13, referring to the LXX of Hos. 6:6.

    Hosea in the Heb. uses "chesed," meaning something like "loyal faithful love."

    Leave a comment:


  • NorrinRadd
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Yes, the Israelites did continuously fail to keep the Law throughout the OT. That was one of the big points Jesus made about his coming. He came to fulfill the law, and point out that trying to follow the letter of the law instead of the intent of the law will always lead to failure. That the law could be summed up as:

    Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
    Pedantic niggle: Matt. 7:12 simplifies it even more.

    Edit: Hmm. Apparently the verse didn't link to the online Bible. Ok -- "Matt 7:12 In everything, treat others as you would want them to treat you, for this fulfills the law and the prophets."

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    Yup. The OT prophets consistently called on people to return to the Lord in obedience, not in adherence to the law.
    In fact, word has it that obedience is better than sacrifice! (I read that somewhere)

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Yes, the Israelites did continuously fail to keep the Law throughout the OT. That was one of the big points Jesus made about his coming. He came to fulfill the law, and point out that trying to follow the letter of the law instead of the intent of the law will always lead to failure. That the law could be summed up as:

    Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    The book of Hebrews goes into detail about the Law and Jesus if you are interested.

    So no, the Way was not about going back to the old ways and keeping the letter of the law at all.

    Way (pun intended) to miss the entire point of the New Testament and Christianity.
    Yup. The OT prophets consistently called on people to return to the Lord in obedience, not in adherence to the law.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Yes, the Israelites did continuously fail to keep the Law throughout the OT. That was one of the big points Jesus made about his coming. He came to fulfill the law, and point out that trying to follow the letter of the law instead of the intent of the law will always lead to failure. That the law could be summed up as:

    Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    The book of Hebrews goes into detail about the Law and Jesus if you are interested.

    So no, the Way was not about going back to the old ways and keeping the letter of the law at all.

    Way (pun intended) to miss the entire point of the New Testament and Christianity.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Here's another word on which to focus: covenant

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by eider View Post
    Sometimes people tell me that the Israelites didn't do so well, and so how could their laws have been so good?
    The answer to that is easy......... they stopped keeping to those laws!

    ISAIAH {2:3} And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

    ISAIAH {30:9} That this [is] a rebellious people, lying children, children [that] will not hear the law of the LORD: {30:10} Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: {30:11} Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

    ISAIAH {40:3} The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. {40:4} Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

    ................. and then came the Baptist, offering redemption and cleansing for nothing, and he told about the corruption and hypocrisy of the leaders................


    Matthew {3:3} For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.


    Mark {1:3} The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. {1:4} John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

    Luke {3:4} As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    John {1:23} He said, I [am] the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.


    ................................. clearly the Baptist knew about the way back.....to the old ways and laws

    Next post......... and what about Jesus?
    Jesus is Lord. Eventually, even you will declare this.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by eider View Post
    A short discussion about 'the way' between members caused me to wonder what such a term might have meant, and where it was first written down.
    It will take a long post to fulfill the whole presentation about 'the way'..
    But it begins to look as if many of the churches lost their way..

    I searched through some books of the bible for this term, and since it also refers to roads and journeys etc most frequently, any complete research might take me days, and so here are a very few verses from early books which can help to show what the Abrahamic God is reported to have told the Israelites.

    The highlights are mine. 'The way' seems to be a title for the old laws. So does the word 'manners'.

    Here we go:-

    GENESIS {18:19} For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

    EXODUS {6:10} And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. {6:11} The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. {6:12} And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

    EXODUS{18:19} Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God: {18:20} And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

    EXODUS {32:7} And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted [themselves: ]{32:8} They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have

    LEVITCUS {20:22} Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. {20:23} And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. {20:24} But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I [am] the LORD your God, which have separated you from [other] people.

    DEUTERONOMY {5:33} Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and [that it may be] well with you, and [that] ye may prolong [your] days in the land which ye shall possess. {6:1} Now these [are] the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments,

    DEUTERONOMY . {8:2} And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, [and] to prove thee, to know what [was] in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no

    DEUTERONOMY {9:12} And the LORD said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted [themselves;] they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.

    DEUTERONOMY {11:22} For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;

    JUDGES {2:16} Nevertheless the LORD raised up judges, which delivered them out of the hand of those that spoiled them. {2:17} And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; [but] they did not so.

    JUDGES {2:20} And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice; {2:21} I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died: {2:22} That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep [it,] or not.

    SAMUEL {22:22} For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. {22:23} For all his judgments [were] before me: and [as for] his statutes,

    PSALMS {18:21} For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. {18:22} For all his judgments [were] before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.



    .................and so a selection of verses from the Old Testament tell me what the ways of the Abrahamic God were, they were the laws.
    ............... and how about what the Baptist and Jesus said?
    ...............my next post................... tomorrow!





    We are New Testament Christians, and all of your references are OT. And John the Baptist, though he appears in the NT, is the last of the OT Prophets.
    He declared that Jesus is the Christ - kinda making the transition from OT to NT.
    But, I see you're moving on to the NT, so...

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Given your mastery of eisegesis, I'm not sure that you are the one who should be doing this.

    Leave a comment:

Related Threads

Collapse

Topics Statistics Last Post
Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
39 responses
230 views
0 likes
Last Post whag
by whag
 
Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
21 responses
132 views
0 likes
Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
80 responses
428 views
0 likes
Last Post tabibito  
Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
45 responses
305 views
1 like
Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
Started by rogue06, 12-26-2023, 11:05 AM
406 responses
2,518 views
2 likes
Last Post tabibito  
Working...
X