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  • [QUOTE=tabibito;n1457634]
    Originally posted by eider View Post

    It's a good thing that we have the scriptures to disambiguate the use of the word.

    Jesus wanted the laws of Moses and the prophets replaced by a better set of laws, which couldn't be done while he lived. Again, it is a good thing that we have the scriptures to give exposition, rather than having to lean on our own understanding.
    You pluck a single word from a whole speech to support your ideas? OK.

    Comment


    • [QUOTE=eider;n1458336]
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      You pluck a single word from a whole speech to support your ideas? OK.
      No
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

        That must be why he got so angry at the Pharisees who kept the letter of the law to the point that it interfered with the intent of the law. Like rescuing an animal on the Sabbath!
        The Pharisees could be self appointed, many were not Levites. Jesus was furious at the Temple and Priesthood.

        They didn't discard the law, they followed it to a fault. They nitpicked the smallest violations. They would keep the law even if it led to someone dying on the sabbath or starved. Read Matthew 12 and Matthew 23.
        You have only focused upon their hypocrisy and lack of integrity. If the Priesthood had kept the Mosaic Laws then the whole population would have been healthy, well nourished, looked after and a cohesed united people.
        The Laws were a Social Initiative supported by Jesus. I don't think that Jesus would have supported your politics, somehow.
        You have said in the past that the New Testament is your interest, but you should look through those laws. So many are just amazing.

        Jesus made it a point to say that the letter of the law was impossible to keep and that the whole law was summed up by 1> Love God with all your heart and 2> Love your neighbor as yourself.
        Well, Do You? Do you love your neighbour's all?
        By keeping to the old Laws (without Temple stuff) Jesus was supporting a stronger, healthier and more united people..... = loving neighbours.


        PS.... I have read Paul's letter to the Hebrews. Why ever did you want me to read that? Actually that could be a thread all by itself.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

          The bible is more than just the gospels.

          Tell me, if someone wrote a book that was not as clear as it could be in some areas, who would you trust to clarify those points? Someone like you living 2000 years later, relying on a translation, or the people who were actually there, living at the time the events occurred and who knew Jesus personally, or knew the disciples personally?
          How would you like it if any humans still around in 4023 were to find a book written by President Biden, clarifying the state of the World today?
          Well, would ya?

          I have already mentioned that I read Paul's letter to Hebrew Church/es...... however do you think that clarifies any points that Jesus made or any actions that he undertook?
          I wouldn't mind starting a thread about Paul's letters. I know nothing about them so that would be interesting for me, if nobody else.
          I would be very interested to read Hypatia's ideas about them, 2000 tears on.....

          Comment


          • Originally posted by eider View Post
            The Pharisees could be self appointed, many were not Levites. Jesus was furious at the Temple and Priesthood.


            You have only focused upon their hypocrisy and lack of integrity. If the Priesthood had kept the Mosaic Laws then the whole population would have been healthy, well nourished, looked after and a cohesed united people.
            The Laws were a Social Initiative supported by Jesus. I don't think that Jesus would have supported your politics, somehow.
            You have said in the past that the New Testament is your interest, but you should look through those laws. So many are just amazing.


            Well, Do You? Do you love your neighbour's all?
            By keeping to the old Laws (without Temple stuff) Jesus was supporting a stronger, healthier and more united people..... = loving neighbours.


            PS.... I have read Paul's letter to the Hebrews. Why ever did you want me to read that? Actually that could be a thread all by itself.
            It is highly unlikely that Paul wrote that letter.

            It seems that you missed this bit:
            Hebrews 7:11-13
            11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?
            12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
            13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar.

            And this bit:
            Hebrews 7:18-19
            18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness
            19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

            And this bit:
            Hebrews 7:22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

            And this bit:
            Hebrews 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

            And a whole lot of other bits besides.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • Originally posted by eider View Post
              What an absolute cop out!
              So Mountain Man can dismiss the Mosaic Laws with one hand and enforce some of them with the other?

              And yet to bust requests and commands of Jesus as you please...? Like Matthew 5:22?

              Where is your integrity? You think and call me fool, but I think you are an hypocrite.


              My very first thought as an example was Leviticus 18:22.

              I do not want to judge anybody by any of my poor standards, so I listen to people and then judge them by theirs. You get a 'fail', old dear.
              It's not a cop out at all, you fool. Jesus himself says that he came to fulfill the law and give us a New Covenant. Therefore, we can still learn from the Law of Moses, but we are not bound by it. This is all perfectly consistent with scripture, which you would know if you actually bothered to read the Bible.

              And if you studied the Bible, you would also understand that there is a clear delineation between the ceremonial laws of the Old Covenant intended for the nation of Israel, and the universal moral laws intended for all men. You think it's safe to ignore Leviticus 18:22? Okay, but do you also think it's safe to ignore verses 21 and 23 which prohibit child sacrifices and bestiality? I guess you want to draw a line through verse 22 while leaving the parts you agree with. Talk about hypocrisy.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by eider View Post
                What an absolute cop out!
                So Mountain Man can dismiss the Mosaic Laws with one hand and enforce some of them with the other?
                Since when is something still being useful for instruction equivalent to enforcement?

                Do you even read what you respond to, or does some wind you up and cause you to go off?




                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by eider View Post

                  Under the law of Nature, yes. And all those of us who are free of psychosis have conscience.
                  Same would go for everybody.
                  No, I am forgiven for my sins. You will answer for yours. Even not knowing the Law, you have a conscience that lets you know that you have done wrong and deserve punishment. Same as I do, but you don't have the forgiveness of Christ who took my sins and paid for them himself so that I won't have to. You will though. That's the difference. The sins must be paid for, either by Jesus or by the sinner.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by eider View Post
                    The Pharisees could be self appointed, many were not Levites. Jesus was furious at the Temple and Priesthood.


                    You have only focused upon their hypocrisy and lack of integrity. If the Priesthood had kept the Mosaic Laws then the whole population would have been healthy, well nourished, looked after and a cohesed united people.
                    The Laws were a Social Initiative supported by Jesus. I don't think that Jesus would have supported your politics, somehow.
                    You have said in the past that the New Testament is your interest, but you should look through those laws. So many are just amazing.


                    Well, Do You? Do you love your neighbour's all?
                    By keeping to the old Laws (without Temple stuff) Jesus was supporting a stronger, healthier and more united people..... = loving neighbours.
                    No I don't, but I try. But I am forgiven for my sins. You are not.


                    PS.... I have read Paul's letter to the Hebrews. Why ever did you want me to read that? Actually that could be a thread all by itself.
                    I was hoping you would gain a better understanding of how Jesus fulfilled the Law and became the ultimate sacrifice for all mankind. But I guess that was too much to hope for.

                    I corinthians 1:18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
                    1 Corinthians 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,



                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      It is highly unlikely that Paul wrote that letter.

                      It seems that you missed this bit:
                      Hebrews 7:11-13
                      11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?
                      12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
                      13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar.

                      And this bit:
                      Hebrews 7:18-19
                      18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness
                      19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

                      And this bit:
                      Hebrews 7:22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

                      And this bit:
                      Hebrews 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

                      And a whole lot of other bits besides.
                      Me?...... missed a bit? I've never bothered with any of Paul's letters, neither genuine nor the others....... they tell nothing about the life and times of Jesus.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                        It's not a cop out at all, you fool. Jesus himself says that he came to fulfill the law and give us a New Covenant. Therefore, we can still learn from the Law of Moses, but we are not bound by it. This is all perfectly consistent with scripture, which you would know if you actually bothered to read the Bible.

                        And if you studied the Bible, you would also understand that there is a clear delineation between the ceremonial laws of the Old Covenant intended for the nation of Israel, and the universal moral laws intended for all men. You think it's safe to ignore Leviticus 18:22? Okay, but do you also think it's safe to ignore verses 21 and 23 which prohibit child sacrifices and bestiality? I guess you want to draw a line through verse 22 while leaving the parts you agree with. Talk about hypocrisy.
                        You didn't get it, I see.
                        We're done, matey......... go bother somebody else.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                          No, I am forgiven for my sins. You will answer for yours. Even not knowing the Law, you have a conscience that lets you know that you have done wrong and deserve punishment. Same as I do, but you don't have the forgiveness of Christ who took my sins and paid for them himself so that I won't have to. You will though. That's the difference. The sins must be paid for, either by Jesus or by the sinner.
                          For sure, I will not have any protection for any of my actions after life...... you've got that right.
                          But you believe that you will have......... not suggesting this is you, but in some people that belief could lead to some kind of psychotic anarchy...... history suggests that it has.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                            No I don't, but I try. But I am forgiven for my sins. You are not.
                            It's nice when we can agree stuff........ because you got the above right, about me at any rate.
                            As far as your auto=pardon or auto-forgiveness, good luck with that.


                            I was hoping you would gain a better understanding of how Jesus fulfilled the Law and became the ultimate sacrifice for all mankind. But I guess that was too much to hope for.
                            Indeed...... I do not believe that Jesus became an ultimate sacrifice for mankind, I'm not even sure that he died on that GoodFriday.

                            I corinthians 1:18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
                            1 Corinthians 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
                            I've never called out Christianity as foolishness........ ever.

                            When people tell me what they believe I can acknowledge their belief, if they tell me that they despise mine then I know that they are unable to acknowledge any but their own.
                            There are movements across the world that try hard to bring people of all religions closer together...... Christians who would quote 1Cor1:23 might not be so effective in such roles.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by eider View Post
                              As far as your auto=pardon or auto-forgiveness, good luck with that.
                              About 80% correct, maybe even 90%. Rather a complex issue, but basically "people's sins are forgiven" =/= "people are forgiven for sinning."

                              There are movements across the world that try hard to bring people of all religions closer together...... Christians who would quote 1Cor1:23 might not be so effective in such roles.
                              Salvation is quite a bit more important than accommodation.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                                No I don't, but I try. But I am forgiven for my sins. You are not.
                                Have I understood you correctly? Are you now permanently exempt from sin?


                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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