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Did Christianity lose its way?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by eider View Post

    More waffle from you.
    Pick any two verses shown in the OP and then show how they do not have a similar message?
    Look at my example and you'll see how two unrelated verses can be "linked" together when you don't care about context.

    What you are doing here is similar to folks who see faces in clouds.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by eider View Post
      Stop waffling, ...
      This is a new phrase you learned?

      You asked a question, and I answered it.

      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by eider View Post

        Then you too are stuck for any meaningful reply, it seems.
        No, CP just got there first and said what I would have but in a more concise way then I would have.

        The verses showed that Jesus supported the Baptist's message which repeated Isaiah's call for a return to the laws, which was the theme of his work imo.

        All 613 were of great value back then. Jesus showed how one of two were outdated, while Paul trashed nearly the whole lot, it was like a trip to the salad bar for him, picking here and there.
        No?
        You now are making a premise based on the false premise you started with that trip to salad bar you took at the beginning of this thread that you accuse Paul of. Before you go on to a new premise you need to explain why THE WAY OF LORD(not just the way but the whole phrase since OF THE LORD defines what way is being talked about) has nothing to do with the Covenant God made with Abraham even though the first verse you posted Gen 18:19 references said covenant.
        ​​​​
        Last edited by RumTumTugger; 02-05-2023, 02:31 PM.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by eider View Post

          Now please pick out one of the verses shown in my OP and tell me which of these is talking about something other than God's law?
          No?
          Genesis 18:19 since Abrahamic covenant predates the Exodus. Abraham's part of the Covenant was to have faith that God would keep his promise which he showed when he took Isaac up the mountain.
          Last edited by RumTumTugger; 02-05-2023, 02:56 PM.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post

            No, CP just got there first and said what I would have but in a more concise way then I would have.



            You now are making a premise based on the false premise you started with that trip to salad bar you took at the beginning of this thread that you accuse Paul of. Before you go on to a new premise you need to explain why THE WAY OF LORD(not just the way but the whole phrase since OF THE LORD defines what way is being talked about) has nothing to do with the Covenant God made with Abraham even though the first verse you posted Gen 18:19 references said covenant.
            ​​​​
            True. Without that "of the Lord," the writer might even be talking about Bushidou (the way of the warrior), the prime tenets for which are much the same as Christianity.

            Bushido.jpgBushido_Symmetrical_Arch_med.jpg
            Dou (- way or road/path.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              The provisions of the covenant are termed the law. The New Covenant supplanted the Old Covenant, it is not a tacked on extra. The provisions/law of the New Covenant are not the same as the provisions/law of the Old. The Old Covenant has a law against murder, so does the New: The definition of what constitutes murder are not the same in the Old as in the New.

              Matthew 5:17 states that Jesus came to fulfil the law, Matthew 5:18 states that until heaven and earth pass away, no part of the law can pass away unless the law is fulfilled - there is no need for both conditions to be met, so the formally correct "until heaven and earth pass away ... until the law is fulfilled" is misleading - should heaven and earth pass away before the law was fulfilled, there would be no chance for the law to be fulfilled. In Matthew 11:12 Jesus states that the law and the prophets were until John. That "until" could have its end point right up until John's death. But for the "since," it could have continued for a short time after his death, the "since" imposes a fixed latest possible terminating date. With his own death, Jesus ushers in the New Covenant.
              So you are trying to put your own interpretation upon Matthew 5:17? You just made that up....'until John'.
              Jesus wanted a return of the old laws, which of course is what Isaiah was calling for.

              Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever
              shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                It was an addendum to me brudder's post about context, specifically regarding what out of context is.

                Odd that you'd take it any other way.

                I'm waiting for any replies from you which address the OP.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  Look at my example and you'll see how two unrelated verses can be "linked" together when you don't care about context.

                  What you are doing here is similar to folks who see faces in clouds.
                  More redirection still......... So pick any of the verses from the OP and show how they do not talk about the law and keeping to the law was 'the way'.

                  Pretending that any of those verses was out of context and continuity, such as about road construction, travel routes, etc is just very muddled.

                  Jesus and the Baptist were calling for a return of the laws. long ignored by the leaders (the priesthood). The line of continuity runs true, straight from Isaiah to the Baptist, even using the same words in their calls.
                  And Jesus supported the Baptist's call. Such as:-

                  Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever
                  shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                    This is a new phrase you learned?

                    You asked a question, and I answered it.
                    No you didn't......
                    Let's read again what you wrote:-


                    Context - from the Latin contextus - to weave together.

                    Context is, basically, what the original author or speaker was saying to the original reader or audience, along with the circumstances at the time, taking into consideration the culture, and paying particular attention to the paragraph or chapter or whatever larger body of work in which that word was used. Why it was used - what it was intended to convey.

                    So, in the example of the word "way", when you find a usage that discusses the way a man courts a woman, or "the way of an eagle in the sky", it's obviously not the same as "the way", used in reference to the Church, or the directions given to know "the way" to the local post office.
                    So let's show you just a few of those verses again, and you can then show how any of these were referring to anything but 'keeping to the laws'. You can pick any that I have posted, but here are just some.
                    Now which ones would you like to select in order to show your point? I'm showing early verses for an easy start.

                    GENESIS {18:19} For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

                    EXODUS{18:19} Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God: {18:20} And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

                    LEVITCUS {20:22} Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. {20:23} And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. {20:24} But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I [am] the LORD your God, which have separated you from [other] people.

                    DEUTERONOMY {5:33} Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and [that it may be] well with you, and [that] ye may prolong [your] days in the land which ye shall possess. {6:1} Now these [are] the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments,

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post

                      No, CP just got there first and said what I would have but in a more concise way then I would have.

                      You now are making a premise based on the false premise you started with that trip to salad bar you took at the beginning of this thread that you accuse Paul of. Before you go on to a new premise you need to explain why THE WAY OF LORD(not just the way but the whole phrase since OF THE LORD defines what way is being talked about) has nothing to do with the Covenant God made with Abraham even though the first verse you posted Gen 18:19 references said covenant.
                      ​​​​
                      Let's make it very easy for you.... I will select two early verses from different books and you can tell me if you think they are referring to the laws and keeping to them..... then we can proceed slowly by adding others.

                      Or...... you can select ANY of the verses which I have shown and then tell me if they refer to the same message about the law and keeping it ...or something else. Just two.

                      DEUTERONOMY {5:33} Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and [that it may be] well with you, and [that] ye may prolong [your] days in the land which ye shall possess. {6:1} Now these [are] the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments,

                      SAMUEL {22:22} For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. {22:23} For all his judgments [were] before me: and [as for] his statutes,

                      PSALMS {18:21} For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. {18:22} For all his judgments [were] before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.

                      ISAIAH {40:3} The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. {40:4} Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by eider View Post

                        So you are trying to put your own interpretation upon Matthew 5:17? You just made that up....'until John'.
                        Jesus wanted a return of the old laws, which of course is what Isaiah was calling for.
                        You could at least give your accusations some semblance of portraying reality.

                        That which has been fulfilled, as was explained earlier and as the Bible itself declares, is fulfilled - completed. As scripture also declares with regard to the law and the prophets, there is not requirement to continue to conduct a procedure that has been fulfilled. In fulfilling the law and the prophets, Jesus paved the way for the Old Covenant to be replaced by the New. Jesus did not call for a return to adherence to the law, but an adherence to God (aka the Kingdom of Heaven) - the same call that was made by the OT prophets.
                        Last edited by tabibito; 02-06-2023, 02:33 AM.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by eider View Post


                          I'm waiting for any replies from you which address the OP.
                          Why are you ignoring my response in post #73?

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were proclaimed until John, (in the time) since the kingdom of heaven is being proclaimed. (translations vary quite widely, but the sense is retained.)

                            Hebrews 8:6-13
                            6 ... He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
                            13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

                            Galatians 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

                            That should do for a start

                            The Old Covenant was rendered obsolete, it was replaced with the New Covenant - which has its own laws, some of which are similar to the Old Testament law.
                            I already presented a similar argument, and eider completely ignored it.

                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            I see you noted Matthew 5 where Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law, which he did through his death and resurrection, and so we are no longer under the Old Covenant and the Law.

                            Scripture Verse: Luke 22

                            And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."

                            © Copyright Original Source


                            Indeed, the prophet Jeremiah said that a New Covenant was coming:

                            Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 31

                            Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt..."

                            © Copyright Original Source


                            Jesus is the literal fulfillment of that promise.

                            You see, when we refer to Biblical context, we're not just talking about the immediately surrounding text but the entirety of scripture itself.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by eider View Post

                              Stop waffling, and show me one or more of those verses which do not connect the law and the Abrahamic God's way together?
                              Jesus was quite clear about the Baptist, who was quite clear about what Isaiah said. The old laws passed from the old prophets to the new prophets as in the Baptist.
                              Now come on......... show me where Jesus didn't support Isaiah's call.

                              Matthew: Matthew {21:32} For John came unto you in the way of
                              righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans
                              and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it,]
                              repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

                              Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
                              prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For
                              verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or
                              one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be
                              fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of
                              these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall
                              be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever
                              shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in
                              the kingdom of heaven.
                              Take a good look at what I highlighted in Matthew 5:17. Now ask yourself: when the terms of a contract are fulfilled, are you still obligated to live under the terms of that contract?
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • Unsubscribed - y'all don't do anything silly while I'm away!
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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