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Did Christianity lose its way?

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  • Originally posted by eider View Post
    No it was not!
    It was as the Abrahamic God explained.....
    See how God explained it:-
    LEVITCUS {20:22} Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. {20:23} And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. {20:24} But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I [am] the LORD your God, which have separated you from [other] people.

    DEUTERONOMY {5:33} Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and [that it may be] well with you, and [that] ye may prolong [your] days in the land which ye shall possess. {6:1} Now these [are] the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments,
    What's your point? God gave them laws and then a system of sacrifices to get forgiveness for their sins and breaking that law. The whole "scape goat" thing for example. That is what the Temple was all about. The priests would sacrifice animals for the sins of the people. In other words, God knew that nobody would be able to keep the Law and they needed a way to get forgiveness. They had to do this regularly.



    I think you lost your way there..... this is what Jesus said:-
    Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever
    shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    =restoration of the old laws.
    No. His fulfillment was to keep the law perfectly (no sin) and then become the ultimate sacrifice for sin, once and for all. No more sacrificing animals every year, no more temple. Now everyone who accepts Jesus' sacrifice is saved from all sin for all time and can come to God directly instead of through a priest.

    PLEASE read Hebrews, eider. It's not that long. It corrects most of your wrong assumptions and will save us a lot of time. Unless you already know you are wrong and just don't care and are trolling?




    Jesus redacted the need for sacrifices, saying. But you have sneaked the entire law in with that!
    Matthew {9:13} But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Now show me where Jesus said that there was no more need for the Law.
    The "Law" is still there but Jesus explained that it can be summed up by 1: Loving God with all your heart and 2: Loving your neighbor as yourself.

    All of the moral parts of the Law were reiterated in the New Testament, such as "You shall not kill" and the rest of the 10 commandments. So yeah the Law is still there. It shows us what sin is. But because of Jesus, we no longer have to sacrifice animals for forgiveness. Jesus was the final sacrifice. Him being a sinless sacrifice and also the Son of God allows him to take all of our sins upon himself and pay our "debt" so that when we stand before God, we are forgiven.

    As Paul said:

    Source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203&version=NIV


    Romans 3
    9
    What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

    “There is no one righteous, not even one;
    11 there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God.

    ...

    19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

    Righteousness Through Faith

    21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith inJesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

    27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

    © Copyright Original Source





    Nowhere, anywhere in the book of Hebrews does Paul quote Jesus!

    Your religion seems to ignore what Jesus said and make Paul your prophet....... truly!

    Hebrews explains the sacrificial system and how Jesus came to be the final sacrifice for all time.

    Have you ever actually read the bible? Even the New Testament? If not, you really have no business trying to tell us what it says and what it means. Just searching phrases without reading the surrounding books tells you nothing.



    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post



      PLEASE read Hebrews, eider. It's not that long. It corrects most of your wrong assumptions and will save us a lot of time. Unless you already know you are wrong and just don't care and are trolling?

      We should open a betting pool over which will happen first, H_A actually reading the Bible for the first time ever, or eider reading Hebrews.

      My money is on eider.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        We should open a betting pool over which will happen first, H_A actually reading the Bible for the first time ever, or eider reading Hebrews.

        My money is on eider.
        I am sure he will find a way to twist what Hebrews says to his paradigm.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          We should open a betting pool over which will happen first, H_A actually reading the Bible for the first time ever, or eider reading Hebrews.

          My money is on eider.
          Knowing eider, he would opt for a copy of The Skeptics Annotated Bible.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            The Old Covenant/Testament did, however, continue in force until Jesus' death.
            I don't think that Jesus died on that Friday.
            But if you can show how you think that the OC died on that Friday then please do show it.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

              Jesus explicitly said that his purpose was to fulfill the law, which he did through his death and resurrection. He also clearly told his disciples that with his sacrifice, he was giving them a New Covenant; therefore, we are no longer living under the terms of the Old Covenant.
              Sources? Verses to show that?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                It is exactly what you are doing. You select some verses and start making artificial connections to support something that the verses simply are not saying.
                Again! Here is a small selection of those verses. Just pick any two and tell me how they are not a clear continuation of exactly the same subject....... the law.

                I've given you three easy ones to start, and then we can move forward from there.....


                EXODUS{18:19} Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God: {18:20} And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

                LEVITCUS {20:22} Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. {20:23} And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. {20:24} But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I [am] the LORD your God, which have separated you from [other] people.

                DEUTERONOMY {5:33} Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and [that it may be] well with you, and [that] ye may prolong [your] days in the land which ye shall possess. {6:1} Now these [are] the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments,

                Comment


                • Originally posted by eider View Post

                  I don't think that Jesus died on that Friday.
                  But if you can show how you think that the OC died on that Friday then please do show it.
                  Can't be done: It was a Thursday. And quite clearly he did die: there are few books of the New Testament that don't declare it. Revelation 1:17-18 ; Revelation 2:18 attribute the claim to Christ himself. Among the many other texts declaring that Jesus died is Romans 14:9
                  1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                  Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                  "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                    What's your point? God gave them laws and then a system of sacrifices to get forgiveness for their sins and breaking that law. The whole "scape goat" thing for example. That is what the Temple was all about. The priests would sacrifice animals for the sins of the people. In other words, God knew that nobody would be able to keep the Law and they needed a way to get forgiveness. They had to do this regularly.
                    No.... I don't think you have got this right at all.
                    The laws were all about producing a strong, successful, healthy, safe. secure and cohesive people. All that sin led to was a reduction in this.
                    Sacrifices, fines and temple tax were all about the cohesion of a system and financial upkeep of the Priesthood and company, 2000 priests and 6000 (Jewish) temple guards in Jesus's time.

                    You think of 'sin' in a totally different way. We have a form of sacrifice, fines and taxes today (UK) with much ceremony, strange dress codes and more.......


                    No. His fulfillment was to keep the law perfectly (no sin) and then become the ultimate sacrifice for sin, once and for all. No more sacrificing animals every year, no more temple. Now everyone who accepts Jesus' sacrifice is saved from all sin for all time and can come to God directly instead of through a priest.
                    No....... his fulfillment was to either bring down the corrupt priesthood or to restore an honest priesthood, I reckon. Christianity reduces his actions in the Temple and raises up some others.

                    PLEASE read Hebrews, eider. It's not that long. It corrects most of your wrong assumptions and will save us a lot of time. Unless you already know you are wrong and just don't care and are trolling?
                    Disagreeing with Christianity is not trolling, it's disagreeing with Christianity. Paul never supported the actions and words of Jesus at all, only making mention of the last meal and hours). But if you can find anything in any of Paul's letters that is in context with those verses which I have shown from Genesis thru to Jesus, please show it.

                    The "Law" is still there but Jesus explained that it can be summed up by 1: Loving God with all your heart and 2: Loving your neighbor as yourself.

                    All of the moral parts of the Law were reiterated in the New Testament, such as "You shall not kill" and the rest of the 10 commandments. So yeah the Law is still there. It shows us what sin is. But because of Jesus, we no longer have to sacrifice animals for forgiveness. Jesus was the final sacrifice. Him being a sinless sacrifice and also the Son of God allows him to take all of our sins upon himself and pay our "debt" so that when we stand before God, we are forgiven.
                    Jesus included the lot when he gave this short and easily understood rule:-
                    Matthew ? {7:12} Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

                    That includes everything, all of it.


                    As Paul said:

                    Source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203&version=NIV


                    Romans 3
                    9
                    What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

                    “There is no one righteous, not even one;
                    11 there is no one who understands;
                    there is no one who seeks God.

                    ...

                    19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

                    Righteousness Through Faith

                    21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith inJesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

                    27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    Paul decided all that by himself. At no point was he able to show the words of any prophet that would support his ideas.

                    Hebrews explains the sacrificial system and how Jesus came to be the final sacrifice for all time.

                    Have you ever actually read the bible? Even the New Testament? If not, you really have no business trying to tell us what it says and what it means. Just searching phrases without reading the surrounding books tells you nothing.

                    Paul explained his ideas about the law.
                    I have shown that I have read the bible, and have quoted a continuous line of verses reaching from Genesis to Jesus.

                    I don't believe what you do, but that doesn't make me a troll.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                      Knowing eider, he would opt for a copy of The Skeptics Annotated Bible.
                      You, rogue06 and Sparko all have just had a chat about me in the third person......... I am here once every day to answer you directly.
                      I might be a pagan but I absolutely believe in the Baptist and Jesus and much of what they are reported to have said and done.
                      I just don't believe that Paul was a prophet......

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by eider View Post

                        Sources? Verses to show that?
                        I've already quoted the relevant verses, you willful moron.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                          I've already quoted the relevant verses, you willful moron.
                          Ha ha...! When you start chucking your filth about, that's the signal that you have lost your way as well!

                          You wrote to me:-

                          Jesus explicitly said that his purpose was to fulfill the law, which he did through his death and resurrection. He also clearly told his disciples that with his sacrifice, he was giving them a New Covenant; therefore, we are no longer living under the terms of the Old Covenant.
                          But can't just show what you think he said.
                          I can do better..... this is what he really said, and (unlike you you lazy member) I don't mind repeating it every time I mention it:-

                          Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

                          So, Mountain Man..... think not that Jesus came to destroy the law or the words of the prophets.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by eider View Post

                            Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

                            So, Mountain Man..... think not that Jesus came to destroy the law or the words of the prophets.
                            And think not that they (i.e. the laws of Moses and the prophets) weren't fulfilled.
                            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by eider View Post

                              Ha ha...! When you start chucking your filth about, that's the signal that you have lost your way as well!

                              You wrote to me:-



                              But can't just show what you think he said.
                              I can do better..... this is what he really said, and (unlike you you lazy member) I don't mind repeating it every time I mention it:-

                              Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

                              So, Mountain Man..... think not that Jesus came to destroy the law or the words of the prophets.
                              And here's the part you repeatedly ignore, you fool: "I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

                              You're just wasting our time with your stiff-necked wilful ignorance.

                              Scripture Verse: Matthew 7

                              "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you."

                              © Copyright Original Source

                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by eider View Post

                                Ha ha...! When you start chucking your filth about, that's the signal that you have lost your way as well!

                                You wrote to me:-



                                But can't just show what you think he said.
                                I can do better..... this is what he really said, and (unlike you you lazy member) I don't mind repeating it every time I mention it:-

                                Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

                                So, Mountain Man..... think not that Jesus came to destroy the law or the words of the prophets.
                                So Jesus said not one jot or tittle of the law shall pass until ALL BE FULFILLED. And he said he came to FULFILL the Law.

                                What does that tell you eider? Come on, it's easy.

                                Comment

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