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Did Christianity lose its way?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by eider View Post

    I haven't even got as far as Jesus yet, and Christianity is hours of work away.
    Odd given the supposed topic and title of the thread.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

      No foolin' -- one night, I woke up about 3 AM, and went out into the living room to watch some TV.
      A TV "evangelist" was on (don't remember his name, he used to sit in a recliner smoking a cigar while "preaching") and he had just said "Peter was a jerk".
      I turned the channel to find something else, but was really curious about his statement, so I switched back to see what he said.

      Again, no foolin', he looked right into the camera, and said "some of you switched to another channel, but couldn't help yourselves, and you came back".

      I turned off the TV and went back to bed.
      Gene Scott was a classic. He famously said that he didn't fall away from Christianity, he fell away from religion. I've heard the man was an excellent theologian, and when he wanted to preach, he could preach, but most of the time he just sat in his easy chair, staring at the camera, smoking his cigar, and saying some of the most outlandish things. He was also good friends with Hugh Hefner and shamelessly showed videos of himself attending parties at the infamous Playboy Mansion.
      Last edited by Mountain Man; 02-03-2023, 10:06 AM.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by eider View Post

        Read the OP and you can tell us all what the term 'way' meant in the context of those verses..... if you think you have a better ability with eisegesis.
        Second reaction to my post from you.

        Someone looked up eisegesis.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Odd given the supposed topic and title of the thread.
          The premise seems to be that Christians are supposed to observe the Old Covenant, and he thinks he can convince us with a textbook elephant hurl.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post

            Sometimes the words, "the way" are just that, and not referring to "the Way" as Christianity was initially called. The Eisogeses is strong with you, eider. You read the bible like one of those cult guys that forces their meanings into obscure verses to prove whatever heretical point they want to make. The Christians took the name "the Way" because Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life" - but that doesn't mean every mention of the words "the way" are connected to the name of the new religion.
            I have already pointed out that the vast majority of the words 'the way' refer to journeys, roads, mannerisms etc.

            So you think that mentions of 'the way' and 'law' are the imaginings of a cult guy, do you? I can see that my presentation posts so far may have been too complex for you?
            So let's take a simple continuity of 'the way' and 'the law' from the very beginning, though Exodus to the Legislation (Leviticus) on to the second reading (Deuteronomy) through Samuel and Psalms (exact same words in those two) on to the Prophet Isaiah's support for the laws, repeated loud by the Baptist, and supported by Jesus himself.

            Now please don't tell me any more about me, tell me about the verses! Read the verses and tell me that they do not show a continuous reference to the Laws that would be written eventually, after the Exodus.

            Not my words....... Here is a precis for your scrutiny:-

            GENESIS {18:19} For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

            EXODUS{18:19} Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God: {18:20} And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

            LEVITCUS {20:22} Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. {20:23} And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. {20:24} But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I [am] the LORD your God, which have separated you from [other] people.

            DEUTERONOMY {5:33} Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and [that it may be] well with you, and [that] ye may prolong [your] days in the land which ye shall possess. {6:1} Now these [are] the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments,

            SAMUEL {22:22} For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. {22:23} For all his judgments [were] before me: and [as for] his statutes,

            PSALMS {18:21} For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. {18:22} For all his judgments [were] before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.

            ISAIAH {40:3} The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. {40:4} Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

            Matthew {3:3} For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

            Mark {1:3} The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. {1:4} John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

            Luke {3:4} As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

            Matthew {11:12} And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. {11:13} For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. {11:14} And if ye will receive [it,] this is Elias, which was for to come. {11:15} He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

            Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever
            shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

            Matthew {21:32} For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it,] repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

            Matthew {7:12} Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

            Enough from the beginning, the exodus, the law makers, the prophets, Ba;ptist and Jesus himself.

            Now it's time to see what G-John and Paul tell of the law, eh? Tomorrow......

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              He can't help but watch, like watching a train wreck.
              No theology from you then, just cheap rhetoric?
              Oh dear.....

              Comment


              • #52
                Interesting point --- we are New Testament Christians, not Old Testament Jews.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                  No they don't. For instance, John the Baptist preparing the way for the Lord has nothing to do with the Law of Moses but, rather, refers to John preparing people's hearts and minds for the arrival of the Messiah, which you would know if you paid attention to the context.
                  Where do you dig this stuff up from?

                  See what Jesus said about John's call:-
                  Matthew {11:12} And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. {11:13} For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. {11:14} And if ye will receive [it,] this is Elias, which was for to come. {11:15} He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

                  You just dream stuff up, I think.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                    The premise seems to be that Christians are supposed to observe the Old Covenant, and he thinks he can convince us with a textbook elephant hurl.
                    Don't read me, see what Jesus said:-

                    Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever
                    shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by eider View Post

                      No theology from you then, just cheap rhetoric?
                      Oh dear.....
                      I figure I should at least let you reach your conclusion before commenting. Who knows? You might stumble upon the right answer.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by eider View Post

                        Where do you dig this stuff up from?
                        The Bible. You should try actually reading it sometime instead being the personification of the old joke about the foolish man who crosses out all the verses that don't apply to him.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by eider View Post

                          Don't read me, see what Jesus said:-

                          Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever
                          shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
                          Yeah, I already addressed that in a previous post. Here it is again:

                          I see you noted Matthew 5 where Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law, which he did through his death and resurrection, and so we are no longer under the Old Covenant and the Law.

                          Scripture Verse: Luke 22

                          And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."

                          © Copyright Original Source


                          Indeed, the prophet Jeremiah said that a New Covenant was coming:

                          Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 31

                          Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt..."

                          © Copyright Original Source


                          Jesus is the literal fulfillment of that promise.

                          You see, when we refer to Biblical context, we're not just talking about the immediately surrounding text but the entirety of scripture itself.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by eider View Post

                            Where do you dig this stuff up from?
                            Oh the delicious unintended

                            IRON--E.jpg
                            Almost as good as some crispy bacon.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by eider View Post

                              I have already pointed out that the vast majority of the words 'the way' refer to journeys, roads, mannerisms etc.

                              So you think that mentions of 'the way' and 'law' are the imaginings of a cult guy, do you? I can see that my presentation posts so far may have been too complex for you?
                              So let's take a simple continuity of 'the way' and 'the law' from the very beginning, though Exodus to the Legislation (Leviticus) on to the second reading (Deuteronomy) through Samuel and Psalms (exact same words in those two) on to the Prophet Isaiah's support for the laws, repeated loud by the Baptist, and supported by Jesus himself.

                              Now please don't tell me any more about me, tell me about the verses! Read the verses and tell me that they do not show a continuous reference to the Laws that would be written eventually, after the Exodus.

                              Not my words....... Here is a precis for your scrutiny:-

                              GENESIS {18:19} For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

                              EXODUS{18:19} Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God: {18:20} And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

                              LEVITCUS {20:22} Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. {20:23} And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. {20:24} But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I [am] the LORD your God, which have separated you from [other] people.

                              DEUTERONOMY {5:33} Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and [that it may be] well with you, and [that] ye may prolong [your] days in the land which ye shall possess. {6:1} Now these [are] the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments,

                              SAMUEL {22:22} For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. {22:23} For all his judgments [were] before me: and [as for] his statutes,

                              PSALMS {18:21} For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. {18:22} For all his judgments [were] before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.

                              ISAIAH {40:3} The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. {40:4} Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

                              Matthew {3:3} For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

                              Mark {1:3} The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. {1:4} John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

                              Luke {3:4} As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

                              Matthew {11:12} And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. {11:13} For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. {11:14} And if ye will receive [it,] this is Elias, which was for to come. {11:15} He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

                              Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever
                              shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

                              Matthew {21:32} For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it,] repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

                              Matthew {7:12} Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

                              Enough from the beginning, the exodus, the law makers, the prophets, Ba;ptist and Jesus himself.

                              Now it's time to see what G-John and Paul tell of the law, eh? Tomorrow......
                              We already explained to you what Jesus did and what he said about the Law. And as I said to you before, if you want to know about all of the history of the Israelites following (or failing to follow) the Law and what the sacrifices were for and what Jesus came to accomplish, just read the Book of Hebrews Here:
                              https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...01&version=NIV

                              It answers all of your questions, and corrects all of your errors and assumptions. In one place.




                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by eider View Post

                                Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever
                                shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

                                Matthew {21:32} For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it,] repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

                                Matthew {7:12} Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

                                Enough from the beginning, the exodus, the law makers, the prophets, Ba;ptist and Jesus himself.

                                Now it's time to see what G-John and Paul tell of the law, eh? Tomorrow......
                                So then - what do you understand by the law being fulfilled? Do you think that once an obligation has been fulfilled, there remains a requirement to continue to meet the terms of that obligation? When the terms of a mortgage for a house, for example, have been fulfilled, is the householder required to continue to make payments on the mortgage?
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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