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Did Christianity lose its way?

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  • Did Christianity lose its way?

    A short discussion about 'the way' between members caused me to wonder what such a term might have meant, and where it was first written down.
    It will take a long post to fulfill the whole presentation about 'the way'..
    But it begins to look as if many of the churches lost their way..

    I searched through some books of the bible for this term, and since it also refers to roads and journeys etc most frequently, any complete research might take me days, and so here are a very few verses from early books which can help to show what the Abrahamic God is reported to have told the Israelites.

    The highlights are mine. 'The way' seems to be a title for the old laws. So does the word 'manners'.

    Here we go:-

    GENESIS {18:19} For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

    EXODUS {6:10} And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. {6:11} The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. {6:12} And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

    EXODUS{18:19} Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God: {18:20} And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

    EXODUS {32:7} And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted [themselves: ]{32:8} They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have

    LEVITCUS {20:22} Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. {20:23} And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. {20:24} But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I [am] the LORD your God, which have separated you from [other] people.

    DEUTERONOMY {5:33} Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and [that it may be] well with you, and [that] ye may prolong [your] days in the land which ye shall possess. {6:1} Now these [are] the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments,

    DEUTERONOMY . {8:2} And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, [and] to prove thee, to know what [was] in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no

    DEUTERONOMY {9:12} And the LORD said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted [themselves;] they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.

    DEUTERONOMY {11:22} For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;

    JUDGES {2:16} Nevertheless the LORD raised up judges, which delivered them out of the hand of those that spoiled them. {2:17} And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; [but] they did not so.

    JUDGES {2:20} And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice; {2:21} I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died: {2:22} That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep [it,] or not.

    SAMUEL {22:22} For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. {22:23} For all his judgments [were] before me: and [as for] his statutes,

    PSALMS {18:21} For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. {18:22} For all his judgments [were] before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.



    .................and so a selection of verses from the Old Testament tell me what the ways of the Abrahamic God were, they were the laws.
    ............... and how about what the Baptist and Jesus said?
    ...............my next post................... tomorrow!






    Last edited by eider; 02-02-2023, 01:18 AM.

  • #2
    Sometimes people tell me that the Israelites didn't do so well, and so how could their laws have been so good?
    The answer to that is easy......... they stopped keeping to those laws!

    ISAIAH {2:3} And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

    ISAIAH {30:9} That this [is] a rebellious people, lying children, children [that] will not hear the law of the LORD: {30:10} Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: {30:11} Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

    ISAIAH {40:3} The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. {40:4} Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

    ................. and then came the Baptist, offering redemption and cleansing for nothing, and he told about the corruption and hypocrisy of the leaders................


    Matthew {3:3} For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.


    Mark {1:3} The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. {1:4} John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

    Luke {3:4} As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    John {1:23} He said, I [am] the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.


    ................................. clearly the Baptist knew about the way back.....to the old ways and laws

    Next post......... and what about Jesus?

    Comment


    • #3
      Given your mastery of eisegesis, I'm not sure that you are the one who should be doing this.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by eider View Post
        A short discussion about 'the way' between members caused me to wonder what such a term might have meant, and where it was first written down.
        It will take a long post to fulfill the whole presentation about 'the way'..
        But it begins to look as if many of the churches lost their way..

        I searched through some books of the bible for this term, and since it also refers to roads and journeys etc most frequently, any complete research might take me days, and so here are a very few verses from early books which can help to show what the Abrahamic God is reported to have told the Israelites.

        The highlights are mine. 'The way' seems to be a title for the old laws. So does the word 'manners'.

        Here we go:-

        GENESIS {18:19} For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

        EXODUS {6:10} And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. {6:11} The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. {6:12} And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

        EXODUS{18:19} Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God: {18:20} And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

        EXODUS {32:7} And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted [themselves: ]{32:8} They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have

        LEVITCUS {20:22} Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. {20:23} And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. {20:24} But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I [am] the LORD your God, which have separated you from [other] people.

        DEUTERONOMY {5:33} Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and [that it may be] well with you, and [that] ye may prolong [your] days in the land which ye shall possess. {6:1} Now these [are] the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments,

        DEUTERONOMY . {8:2} And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, [and] to prove thee, to know what [was] in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no

        DEUTERONOMY {9:12} And the LORD said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted [themselves;] they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.

        DEUTERONOMY {11:22} For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;

        JUDGES {2:16} Nevertheless the LORD raised up judges, which delivered them out of the hand of those that spoiled them. {2:17} And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; [but] they did not so.

        JUDGES {2:20} And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice; {2:21} I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died: {2:22} That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep [it,] or not.

        SAMUEL {22:22} For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. {22:23} For all his judgments [were] before me: and [as for] his statutes,

        PSALMS {18:21} For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. {18:22} For all his judgments [were] before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.



        .................and so a selection of verses from the Old Testament tell me what the ways of the Abrahamic God were, they were the laws.
        ............... and how about what the Baptist and Jesus said?
        ...............my next post................... tomorrow!





        We are New Testament Christians, and all of your references are OT. And John the Baptist, though he appears in the NT, is the last of the OT Prophets.
        He declared that Jesus is the Christ - kinda making the transition from OT to NT.
        But, I see you're moving on to the NT, so...
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by eider View Post
          Sometimes people tell me that the Israelites didn't do so well, and so how could their laws have been so good?
          The answer to that is easy......... they stopped keeping to those laws!

          ISAIAH {2:3} And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

          ISAIAH {30:9} That this [is] a rebellious people, lying children, children [that] will not hear the law of the LORD: {30:10} Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: {30:11} Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

          ISAIAH {40:3} The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. {40:4} Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

          ................. and then came the Baptist, offering redemption and cleansing for nothing, and he told about the corruption and hypocrisy of the leaders................


          Matthew {3:3} For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.


          Mark {1:3} The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. {1:4} John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

          Luke {3:4} As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

          John {1:23} He said, I [am] the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.


          ................................. clearly the Baptist knew about the way back.....to the old ways and laws

          Next post......... and what about Jesus?
          Jesus is Lord. Eventually, even you will declare this.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #6
            Here's another word on which to focus: covenant
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #7
              Yes, the Israelites did continuously fail to keep the Law throughout the OT. That was one of the big points Jesus made about his coming. He came to fulfill the law, and point out that trying to follow the letter of the law instead of the intent of the law will always lead to failure. That the law could be summed up as:

              Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

              The book of Hebrews goes into detail about the Law and Jesus if you are interested.

              So no, the Way was not about going back to the old ways and keeping the letter of the law at all.

              Way (pun intended) to miss the entire point of the New Testament and Christianity.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Yes, the Israelites did continuously fail to keep the Law throughout the OT. That was one of the big points Jesus made about his coming. He came to fulfill the law, and point out that trying to follow the letter of the law instead of the intent of the law will always lead to failure. That the law could be summed up as:

                Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

                The book of Hebrews goes into detail about the Law and Jesus if you are interested.

                So no, the Way was not about going back to the old ways and keeping the letter of the law at all.

                Way (pun intended) to miss the entire point of the New Testament and Christianity.
                Yup. The OT prophets consistently called on people to return to the Lord in obedience, not in adherence to the law.
                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  Yup. The OT prophets consistently called on people to return to the Lord in obedience, not in adherence to the law.
                  In fact, word has it that obedience is better than sacrifice! (I read that somewhere)
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Yes, the Israelites did continuously fail to keep the Law throughout the OT. That was one of the big points Jesus made about his coming. He came to fulfill the law, and point out that trying to follow the letter of the law instead of the intent of the law will always lead to failure. That the law could be summed up as:

                    Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
                    Pedantic niggle: Matt. 7:12 simplifies it even more.

                    Edit: Hmm. Apparently the verse didn't link to the online Bible. Ok -- "Matt 7:12 In everything, treat others as you would want them to treat you, for this fulfills the law and the prophets."
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Federalist.

                    Nationalist Christian.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                    Justice for Matthew Perna!

                    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                      In fact, word has it that obedience is better than sacrifice! (I read that somewhere)
                      So is mercy, per Matt. 9:13, referring to the LXX of Hos. 6:6.

                      Hosea in the Heb. uses "chesed," meaning something like "loyal faithful love."

                      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                      Beige Federalist.

                      Nationalist Christian.

                      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                      Justice for Matthew Perna!

                      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        FWIW, a quick-and-dirty search for "the Way" (capitalized like that). Of course, decisions about what should be Capitalized in English are quite subjective.

                        The relevant citations seem to be Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 24:14, 22; and possibly Amos 8:14.
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                        Beige Federalist.

                        Nationalist Christian.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                        Justice for Matthew Perna!

                        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                          We are New Testament Christians, and all of your references are OT. And John the Baptist, though he appears in the NT, is the last of the OT Prophets.
                          He declared that Jesus is the Christ - kinda making the transition from OT to NT.
                          But, I see you're moving on to the NT, so...
                          My journey began back in the OT, and verses about the way and paths written in the OT were called out by the Baptist in the NT............ so the words and terms are connected.
                          The Baptist seems to have meant what those from before meant.
                          I'll do my best to finish the presentation later.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Given your mastery of eisegesis, I'm not sure that you are the one who should be doing this.
                            But I am the one who is doing this. I've never seen any such examination from you.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              Here's another word on which to focus: covenant
                              I have been writing about that. But you have not seen, maybe?

                              Comment

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