Does Islam preach forcible conversion?

[rogue06]

Just a note, but another important factor to consider is that unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses where there is a call for violence, nearly all of the verses of violence in the qur'an are open-ended. They aren't restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text but they are instead considered part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and regarded as being just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the qur'an.

IOW, in the OT, war was mandated against a very specific group at a very specific time. In the qur'an it is mandated against all infidels and continues for as long as there are non-Muslims, unchanged from the day it was first written.

[rogue06]

Lying to others is as lying to others occurs:-
I wonder how many times that Christianity has told ,,,'We come in peace!'
Paul's guidance to Christians does seem to read sweetly, (I just looked through a list of his rules and advice) but Christianity is what it does and has done and persecution by Christianity has a horrid history.

What you continue to deliberately ignore is that in Islam lying through your teeth is not only acceptable but considered honorable. After all, Muhammad himself lied to people so obviously lying must be a good thing -- but only if it is done to non-Muslims.

Don't try to tell me about struggles between Islam, Buddhists and Hindus...... for 2000 years Christian anti-Semitism has been horrific, just look at the Gospel of John.

It is probably best that you don't trying speaking about things you obviously know nothing about.

....... ugh.... are you trying to choke me? My laughter subsided in to gasps for air......... I need a nice mug of tea.

I'm no fan of Islam now, but that is the result of researching it. When I started I was very open to it thanks to what I read (and saw on their numerous PBS specials) by Joseph Campbell and Huston Smith.

But they didn't go into details, painting a very generalized picture. It was when I started digging down and found that how it is typically portrayed to westerners is not even remotely accurate -- and that goes directly back to their doctrine of taqqiya/idtirar -- that my view soured.

Maybe when you find the time you can bother yourself to actually finish the OP and the second post where I discuss this in detail and provide multiple examples you can then ignore

Iranian Bahais seem to be very well off...... I think that there are about 300,000 in total.

You didn't bother to read about the persecution they are facing where they are now literally in an environment where they have NO rights and "can be attacked and persecuted in Iran without consequences for perpetrators."

The persecution of Baháʼís in Iran intensified greatly following the 1979 Islamic revolution.^[91] The regime that took power essentially does not allow members of the Baháʼí Faith, "even in theory, to exercise freely their religion and to exist and function as an organized religious community."^[92] When the new Islamic republic's constitution was drawn up in April 1979, certain rights for Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian minorities in Iran were specifically mentioned and protected. Ominously, no mention whatsoever was made of the Baháʼí community, Iran's largest religious minority. Under Iran's brand of Islamic ideology, this lack of constitutional protection, in conjunction with unmitigated religious prejudice, has meant Baháʼís effectively have no rights of any sort, and can be attacked and persecuted in Iran without consequences for perpetrators.^[93]

And yet you liken it to the Baha'i's "confronting" Islam in the country.

But Bahai's future in Iran as a religion does not seem very bright, which is probably why Abdul Baha brought it to America after WWI and Shoghi Effendi spread it far and wide around the world.
Iran has been very careful with Bahai irritations since the overthrow of the Shah.... The Shah's rule was very harsh on Bahai, I think.

It got much harsher after the shah as the entry from Wikipedia supplied above attests ("The persecution of Baháʼís in Iran intensified greatly following the 1979 Islamic revolution").

Iran sees Bahai as a political enemy and no more, yet Bahais survive well in Iran .

Just as long as they can keep their religion hidden and secret.

Maybe you can post a picture of a Baha'i place of worship in Iran.

[rogue06]

Well that put's tabibito's point to bed nicely.
Shia Islam makes up about 10%, so tabibito wrote in some tangled argument that it could count as any kind of example about Islam.

Are you saying that the Shiites aren't representative of Islam? While a significant minority they are still by far and away the second largest denomination.

OK....... so how many different Christian denominations would you say that there might be in the World?

Not sure. It depends on how they are counted, but you don't include every Christian group as a separate denomination.


Basically the tens of thousands of different denominations claim is a myth that keeps growing with the telling, and to say that number is grossly inflated is an understatement and the methodology employed to arrive at these figures is ridiculous. It is based on a radically open definition of what "denomination" is. For instance under the definition used to arrive at that number if there two independent Baptist churches on each side of the street, each one of them is considered a different denomination. In fact every independent Baptist church is deemed to be a different denomination by the definition used to arrive at this figure.

The numbers for the World Christian Encyclopedia list was supplied by the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary and it is telling how they arrived at their claims which can be found in the Methodology from the Atlas of Global Christianity resource ( smiley hat tip.gif to Adrift)

Source: Methodology from the Atlas of Global Christianity

First, for each major tradition, a denomination present in more than one country was counted as one denomination per each country. Thus, for example, the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia was considered a separate denomination from the Russian Orthodox Church in Kazakhstan. Second, the Anglican tradition was considered to consist of one denomination in each country in which it is present (169 in all). Third, the Roman Catholic Church was considered to consist of 239 denominations; however, about half of all Christians globally are Roman Catholics.

© Copyright Original Source

So they count as a different denomination for each country they are in. IOW, Catholics in the U.S. are a different denomination than those in Mexico. And both are different denominations from those in Spain. And the Catholics in France are a separate denomination than the Catholics in the U.S., Mexico and Spain. And on and on. A case can definitely be made for this regarding some Orthodox churches but definitely not with the RCC.

Further, within Roman Catholicism there are claimed to be a number of different "denominations" since those that cobble together these lists tend to call the various orders within it separate denominations. They all follow Roman Catholic teachings but have differences that could almost be called cosmetic. That's like going to two Southern Baptist, or Methodist or Lutheran churches across town from one another and noticing the differences in how they do things and then declaring them separate denominations.

Moreover, every single Bible society or church club is also considered to be a different denomination than the church or churches that it is affiliated with.

Further, many groups that aren't even Christian often get added in to help inflate the number. Some are Christian denominations in the same way that Islam is a Christian or Jewish denomination.

As an example, take a look at the Google entry List of Lutheran denominations.

FWIU, most of those Lutheran "denominations" are anything but. Instead many are "Associations" -- some of which have members from different Lutheran denominations (the Missouri Synod and ECLA) and some consisting of a single denomination.

Most Lutherans I know (most of my family) will tell you there are two denominations (those mentioned) -- at least as far as the U.S. goes -- although there used to be three, but the ECLA was formed when two of them merged in the late 80s.

And it looks like Wikipedia is separating Lutheran Churches into different denominations based upon country or language. For example, the Apostolic Lutheran Church of America is for Finnish speaking Americans being unofficially linked to the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland. If you spoke Finnish you would be pretty hard pressed to find any difference between them and the ECLA

Finally, if you want to understand just how ridiculous these figures are, try naming just twenty Christian denominations from memory alone. If there were ten thousands of them someone shouldn't have any difficulty rattling off a hundred so a mere twenty ought to be a real breeze.

[eider]

Only Islam has a provision that calls for lying to others. And it isn't just during war but wherever you can gain the advantage.

As I posted in the OP:

It started out as a way for Muslims to deny their faith in order to avoid persecution by lying (contrast to early Christian martyrs) and is mentioned in both the Qur'an and Hadiths^[1], but it was rather quickly greatly expanded to include situations where no danger is involved but when it merely serves their interests with the justification that Muhammad regularly employed deception against infidels. A line in the most revered of the Hadiths, the Sahih al-Bukhari is usually cited in order to legitimize the practice, which states that Abu Darda, one of the companions of Muhammad and later governor of Syria reminded the faithful that they should "smile in the face of some people [infidels] although our hearts curse them."

Please note the bolded part and consider it before saying that Christians did the same thing.

Lying to others is as lying to others occurs:-
I wonder how many times that Christianity has told ,,,'We come in peace!'
Paul's guidance to Christians does seem to read sweetly, (I just looked through a list of his rules and advice) but Christianity is what it does and has done and persecution by Christianity has a horrid history.

Pretty much only religions that are regarded as being "of the Book" (Judaism, Christianity and Zoroastrianism) and even they are persecuted (let me know when you want to discuss the Islamic practice of dhimmitude). Those who aren't, such as Hindus, aren't. When Muslims figure they have sufficient control of an area the forced conversions of Hindus and the like start.

If you have any friends who are Hindu, particularly those not raised in the west, ask them about their relationship with Muslims.

Christians are of the Book and hence tolerated. Again, if you want to discuss this "protection" (dhimmitude) I'll be glad to

Don't try to tell me about struggles between Islam, Buddhists and Hindus...... for 2000 years Christian anti-Semitism has been horrific, just look at the Gospel of John.

I approached Islam with an incredibly open mind ...........................

....... ugh.... are you trying to choke me? My laughter subsided in to gasps for air......... I need a nice mug of tea.

It looks like Baha'i's future in Iran is not good.

Iranian Bahais seem to be very well off...... I think that there are about 300,000 in total.

But Bahai's future in Iran as a religion does not seem very bright, which is probably why Abdul Baha brought it to America after WWI and Shoghi Effendi spread it far and wide around the world.
Iran has been very careful with Bahai irritations since the overthrow of the Shah.... The Shah's rule was very harsh on Bahai, I think.

Iran sees Bahai as a political enemy and no more, yet Bahais survive well in Iran .

[eider]

If you are a member of a denomination you will be a minority. The largest is the Roman Catholic Church and they constitute a little less than a quarter of all Christians.

Well that put's tabibito's point to bed nicely.
Shia Islam makes up about 10%, so tabibito wrote in some tangled argument that it could count as any kind of example about Islam.

But, I'll note as an aside the meme about there being 10,000 or 20,000 different denominations is codswallop and based on labeling every Christian organization a separate denomination.

OK....... so how many different Christian denominations would you say that there might be in the World?

[rogue06]

In war each side does what it can to confuse and deceive opposing forces.......... just like Christians do.

Only Islam has a provision that calls for lying to others. And it isn't just during war but wherever you can gain the advantage.

As I posted in the OP:

It started out as a way for Muslims to deny their faith in order to avoid persecution by lying (contrast to early Christian martyrs) and is mentioned in both the Qur'an and Hadiths^[1], but it was rather quickly greatly expanded to include situations where no danger is involved but when it merely serves their interests with the justification that Muhammad regularly employed deception against infidels. A line in the most revered of the Hadiths, the Sahih al-Bukhari is usually cited in order to legitimize the practice, which states that Abu Darda, one of the companions of Muhammad and later governor of Syria reminded the faithful that they should "smile in the face of some people [infidels] although our hearts curse them."

Please note the bolded part and consider it before saying that Christians did the same thing.

The fact is that other religions can exist where Islam rules, and have existed, is true.

Pretty much only religions that are regarded as being "of the Book" (Judaism, Christianity and Zoroastrianism) and even they are persecuted (let me know when you want to discuss the Islamic practice of dhimmitude). Those who aren't, such as Hindus, aren't. When Muslims figure they have sufficient control of an area the forced conversions of Hindus and the like start.

If you have any friends who are Hindu, particularly those not raised in the west, ask them about their relationship with Muslims.

Muhammad offered protection to Christians at times, just as Islam can and does offer protections to other religions today.

Christians are of the Book and hence tolerated. Again, if you want to discuss this "protection" (dhimmitude) I'll be glad to

Your whole approach to Islam appears to be one of confrontation and aggression, that's not very nice in a world where Muslims live amongst us...is it?

I approached Islam with an incredibly open mind having been introduced to it through such people as Joseph Campbell and Huston Smith. But what I found wasn't matching up with what was presented (not so much by Campbell or Smith but by Muslims).

They lie when they claim that Islam means "peace" -- it means "submission."

They lie about abrogation.

They lie about what jihad is and means.

They lie about, well lying. The whole taqqiya/idtirar thing.

Then there's this thing about a willingness to kill those who disagree with the claim that Islam is a religion of peace.

Oh...ho ho! Rogue is now going to tell us all what Jesus really meant!

That has been your and H_A's job.

I already read what he is reported to have said...........
Matthew {10:34} Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. {10:35} For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. {10:36} And a man’s foes [shall be] they of his own household.
Mark {3:33} And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? {3:34} And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! {3:35} For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Yup. And how does that disagree with what I said or the simple facts of history. Becoming a Christian back then could and did divide families just as Jesus said it would.

You twist and spin what Muhammad said and did to your own ends, imo...... it might be better if you think of ways in which Christians and Muslims might find more diplomacy and peace together.

I let him speak for himself and cite with what their most esteemed books and scholars say. No need to twist anything.

This thread is rubbish, imo, and it reminds me of a particular struggle that has lasted well over a century in one Islamic country, where Bahais have openly confronted Islam in Persia/Iran since the middle of the 19th century in various ways, but despite all this there are still hundreds of thousands of Bahais alive, well and thriving....in Iran! So much for your claims, eh?
I'm not saying that Bahai is right or wrong in it's actions in Iran, I'm simply saying that tensions and aggressions between Islam and Bahai have continued for a very long time and yet Bahais still exist there in great numbers. Your claims are wrong.

The Baha'i religion originates from the Shiite version of Islam, so there may be that at play, but to say they are confronting Islam in Iran is hilarious given the level of discrimination and persecution that they face there.

It would be more accurate to say that they keep their heads down and try to avoid much attention -- certainly not seeking confrontations.

Baháʼí Faith in Iran

The persecution of Baháʼís in Iran intensified greatly following the 1979 Islamic revolution.^[91] The regime that took power essentially does not allow members of the Baháʼí Faith, "even in theory, to exercise freely their religion and to exist and function as an organized religious community."^[92] When the new Islamic republic's constitution was drawn up in April 1979, certain rights for Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian minorities in Iran were specifically mentioned and protected. Ominously, no mention whatsoever was made of the Baháʼí community, Iran's largest religious minority. Under Iran's brand of Islamic ideology, this lack of constitutional protection, in conjunction with unmitigated religious prejudice, has meant Baháʼís effectively have no rights of any sort, and can be attacked and persecuted in Iran without consequences for perpetrators.^[93]

It looks like Baha'i's future in Iran is not good.

[rogue06]

Shia Islam supports and accepts the Quran, the other millions have added the hadiths.

The Shiites also accept the hadiths although theirs are not precisely the same as the Sunnis giving precedence to those attributed to Ali and Fatima whereas the Sunni view that anything from any of the companions is equal.

Shia slam would say that it is the only Islam.

No. Who told you this?

I didn't think you could answer that........ there are many doctrines, denominations and different churches in Christianity........ you might be a member of a minority, maybe?

If you are a member of a denomination you will be a minority. The largest is the Roman Catholic Church and they constitute a little less than a quarter of all Christians.

But, I'll note as an aside the meme about there being 10,000 or 20,000 different denominations is codswallop and based on labeling every Christian organization a separate denomination.

[eider]

OBP nailed it. You never made it past the third paragraph

The peaceful verses in the qur'an were abrogated -- nullified. Keep that in mind when an apologist cites them and tells you that Islam is a religion of peace (and death to any infidel who disagrees). They realize this and count on you not knowing it.

It all boils down to the practice of taqqiya/idtirar (lying to non-Muslims).

In war each side does what it can to confuse and deceive opposing forces.......... just like Christians do.
The fact is that other religions can exist where Islam rules, and have existed, is true.

Muhammad offered protection to Christians at times, just as Islam can and does offer protections to other religions today.
Your whole approach to Islam appears to be one of confrontation and aggression, that's not very nice in a world where Muslims live amongst us...is it?

Jesus was talking about how following him will create division -- that it would cause strife among families and friends. And while bringing peace between man and God, this could lead to an increase in that conflict between family and friends. In fact, He makes it clear that we can expect to be persecuted in His name because His arrival would and did bring division to Israel, as even family members turn on each other over the issue of whether He is the Messiah.

Oh...ho ho! Rogue is now going to tell us all what Jesus really meant!
I already read what he is reported to have said...........
Matthew {10:34} Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. {10:35} For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. {10:36} And a man’s foes [shall be] they of his own household.
Mark {3:33} And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? {3:34} And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! {3:35} For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Finally, nobody is denying that Christians engaged in the same sort of behavior that Muslims did and still do, but as has been repeatedly pointed out for Christians to do so they had to expressly ignore what Jesus taught. In sharp contrast to not behave in this manner, Muslims would have to expressly ignore what Muhammad taught.

You twist and spin what Muhammad said and did to your own ends, imo...... it might be better if you think of ways in which Christians and Muslims might find more diplomacy and peace together.

This thread is rubbish, imo, and it reminds me of a particular struggle that has lasted well over a century in one Islamic country, where Bahais have openly confronted Islam in Persia/Iran since the middle of the 19th century in various ways, but despite all this there are still hundreds of thousands of Bahais alive, well and thriving....in Iran! So much for your claims, eh?
I'm not saying that Bahai is right or wrong in it's actions in Iran, I'm simply saying that tensions and aggressions between Islam and Bahai have continued for a very long time and yet Bahais still exist there in great numbers. Your claims are wrong.

[tabibito]

Shia Islam supports and accepts the Quran, the other millions have added the hadiths.
Shia slam would say that it is the only Islam.

The world at large doesn't have to cope with Shia Islam.

I didn't think you could answer that........ there are many doctrines, denominations and different churches in Christianity........ you might be a member of a minority, maybe?

No choccies for you!

Until recently, I was quite heavily involved with the Anglicans and Baptists simultaneously. Before that it was the Lutherans, then the Uniting Church: but there are times, as now, when I am not involved with any churches. What significance do the labels hold?

[eider]

10% of any group is a small minority; raw numbers might number in the millions, but if it is only 10% of the group under review, it remains a small minority.

Shia Islam supports and accepts the Quran, the other millions have added the hadiths.
Shia slam would say that it is the only Islam.

Various, it depends on where I am needed.

I didn't think you could answer that........ there are many doctrines, denominations and different churches in Christianity........ you might be a member of a minority, maybe?

No choccies for you!

[rogue06]

That reminds of the words of Jesus..... you really need to look in to the various verses that Christians can select for various situations, such as ..........
Matthew {10:34} Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. {10:35} For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. {10:36} And a man’s foes [shall be] they of his own household.
.........................that piece does remind me of our Civil Wars..... man against father, daughter against mother...... etc

Christopher Columbus wrote lovely comments about the great land that he discovered:-
Here we can see how he was offering gentle conversion:-


,” Columbus declares that the land could easily be conquered by Spain, and the natives “might become Christians and inclined to love our King and Queen and Princes and all the people of Spain.”


......... and here we see what he was really doing.......!........:-



Why Columbus Day Courts Controversy


History Channel
https://www.history.com › news › columbus-day-contr...
9 Oct 2020 — In an era in which the international slave trade was starting to grow, Columbus and his men enslaved many native inhabitants of the West ...
Christopher Columbus and Caribbean Population Decline


Johns Hopkins University
https://muse.jhu.edu › article
by GE Tinker · 2008 · Cited by 29 — The evidence is quite clear and incontrovertible. Colón/Columbus, the all-american hero, was indeed a slave trader of the most brutal and ...
The Untold Story Of Native American Enslavement

-----------------------------------------------


Somebody has to talk back to your fear fueled fires about Islam, and we need to find ways for all theists, agnostics and atheists to be able to exist together in as much harmony as possible.
Spewing up anti-Islamic propaganda is just not good........ I don't think that Christianity needs to focus upon its past either...... the above sentences simply show how easy it can be to chuck muck about.
You need to think of ways to acknowledge other religions and opinions about life, maybe?
The world needs to look ahead, and the Qurun does offer peaceful solutions as well as your New Testament can ........ in places.

OBP nailed it. You never made it past the third paragraph

The peaceful verses in the qur'an were abrogated -- nullified. Keep that in mind when an apologist cites them and tells you that Islam is a religion of peace (and death to any infidel who disagrees). They realize this and count on you not knowing it.

It all boils down to the practice of taqqiya/idtirar (lying to non-Muslims).



Jesus was talking about how following him will create division -- that it would cause strife among families and friends. And while bringing peace between man and God, this could lead to an increase in that conflict between family and friends. In fact, He makes it clear that we can expect to be persecuted in His name because His arrival would and did bring division to Israel, as even family members turn on each other over the issue of whether He is the Messiah.

Finally, nobody is denying that Christians engaged in the same sort of behavior that Muslims did and still do, but as has been repeatedly pointed out for Christians to do so they had to expressly ignore what Jesus taught. In sharp contrast to not behave in this manner, Muslims would have to expressly ignore what Muhammad taught.

[tabibito]

So what? I happened to choose Iran as an example.


Shia Islam........ a small minority sect?

Sorry! No gold star for you!

10% of any group is a small minority; raw numbers might number in the millions, but if it is only 10% of the group under review, it remains a small minority.

QUESTION:- Which Christian church or congregation or denomination do you follow?

Various, it depends on where I am needed.

[eider]

I've been waiting for H_A to bring this up but she has yet to get that far, so congratulations on that.

You really need to look into the Islamic doctrine of abrogation (a.k.a., naskh), because the ayat prohibiting forced conversions was later nullified by those that require it. In fact, I'll do it for you...


The fact is that surah 2:256, like the other passages that called for peace and tolerance and always cited by Islamic apologists, were later abrogated (superseded or repealed) by surah 9:5 (Ayat al-Sayf or the Verse of the Sword).

That reminds of the words of Jesus..... you really need to look in to the various verses that Christians can select for various situations, such as ..........
Matthew {10:34} Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. {10:35} For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. {10:36} And a man’s foes [shall be] they of his own household.
.........................that piece does remind me of our Civil Wars..... man against father, daughter against mother...... etc

Christopher Columbus wrote lovely comments about the great land that he discovered:-
Here we can see how he was offering gentle conversion:-


,” Columbus declares that the land could easily be conquered by Spain, and the natives “might become Christians and inclined to love our King and Queen and Princes and all the people of Spain.”


......... and here we see what he was really doing.......!........:-



Why Columbus Day Courts Controversy


History Channel
https://www.history.com › news › columbus-day-contr...
9 Oct 2020 — In an era in which the international slave trade was starting to grow, Columbus and his men enslaved many native inhabitants of the West ...
Christopher Columbus and Caribbean Population Decline


Johns Hopkins University
https://muse.jhu.edu › article
by GE Tinker · 2008 · Cited by 29 — The evidence is quite clear and incontrovertible. Colón/Columbus, the all-american hero, was indeed a slave trader of the most brutal and ...
The Untold Story Of Native American Enslavement

-----------------------------------------------


Somebody has to talk back to your fear fueled fires about Islam, and we need to find ways for all theists, agnostics and atheists to be able to exist together in as much harmony as possible.
Spewing up anti-Islamic propaganda is just not good........ I don't think that Christianity needs to focus upon its past either...... the above sentences simply show how easy it can be to chuck muck about.
You need to think of ways to acknowledge other religions and opinions about life, maybe?
The world needs to look ahead, and the Qurun does offer peaceful solutions as well as your New Testament can ........ in places.

[eider]

Shias make up the majority of the Muslim population in Iran (around 90%). World wide, they make up roughly 10% of the Islamic population. Sunnis make up the overwhelming majority of the Islamic population, and have conducted genocidal war against Shias.

So what? I happened to choose Iran as an example.

Christian sects overwhelmingly don't engage in forced conversion in the here and now. The same cannot be said of Islam, except in the isolated case of a small minority sect.

Shia Islam........ a small minority sect?

Sorry! No gold star for you!


QUESTION:- Which Christian church or congregation or denomination do you follow?

[rogue06]

The Shiite Islamic leaders of Iran allow Christians and Jews to follow their own religions, as long as they do not interfere with Islam, and a seat exists in the government auditorium for each of those religiions.
No seat exists for Bahai because the Iranian government identifies Bahai as a political (and not religious) organisation; but many Bahais live in Iran including about 30,000 around Tehran alone....... no forced conversion.

I probably should try to directly address this...

Muslims hold that Christians and Jews are "of the book" meaning that they don't have to be forcibly converted. That their beliefs, while erroneous, are sufficient. So they get relegated to dhimmi status (I'll get into that if you wish )

I don't know if Shia Muslims (who are in charge of Iran) view Baha’ism the same way (Sunnis absolutely don't, regarding them as kuffar) although apparently it is considered to have originated from a Shia sect called the Shaykhiyyah^[1] so that too could account for any tolerance.

I'll add that the tolerance appears to be decreasing according to at least one Shiite theologian.

Source: Iran’s Increased Persecution of the Bahai

Targeting the faith’s followers is a longstanding feature of the Islamic Republic but has been escalating of late.

On January 18, a court in Iran’s Mazandaran province ordered that property belonging to Bahai citizen Sheida Taeed be confiscated and transferred to the “Execution of Imam Khomeini’s Order,” a committee controlled by Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei. Authorities had previously arrested Taeed in September on undisclosed charges. Apparently, the seizure order relied on a past regime fatwa stating that Bahai “properties and estates are not legitimate” and therefore belong to the religious authorities.

Similarly, two courts declared last year that the land ownership claims of twenty-seven Bahai in the village of Ivel were illegal. The village is located in Mazandaran, the province that gave birth to the faith’s founders and is now home to one of the largest Bahai communities in the country. Examining the mechanisms and reasoning behind the escalating oppression of these communities provides a useful window into the regime’s current methods of retaining power.

The State’s Conspiratorial Views of the Bahai

Although followers of the Bahai faith accept the legitimacy of Islam—including the Twelver Shia branch, Iran’s official religion—regime clerics have viewed them as potential challengers from the very beginning of the Islamic Republic. The Bahai believe that doctrines regarding the Twelver Shia messiah (the Mahdi) became irrelevant once the emergence of their own faith superseded Islam. To be sure, this view is not presented in confrontational terms—the Bahai faith is one of the most peaceful religions on the planet because it rejects violent conflict of any sort. Yet the Bahai also firmly believe it is their duty to proselytize their religion far and wide. And since belief in the Mahdi is arguably the main pillar of Twelver Shia, the regime feels it must forcefully prevent the expansion of a faith that rejects this belief.

Accordingly, Iran’s Shia establishment has worked hard to deny Bahai’s status as a religion. In various undated fatwas posted on his official website, Khamenei himself has called the Bahai “impure” infidels and “enemies” of the Shia faith, exhorting his followers to “avoid any sort of socialization with such a misguided and misguiding sect.” He also emphasized that “all believers should confront [Bahai] ruses and perversions...and prevent others from being perverted by joining them.”

In addition, regime officials frequently cast the faith as a Western or Zionist plot to divide the Muslim community. In their view, the fact that the Bahai world headquarters is located in Israel proves that the faith’s leaders are conspiring with the “Zionist regime.” Ironically, Iranian Jews are not accused of being Zionist spies by default, but the Bahai are automatically considered to be security threats and Zionist agents (though other forms of regime pressure on Jews are well-documented, as discussed below).

An Illegal Social Reality

Iran’s constitution is the only one in the Muslim world that specifies a branch of Islam—Twelver Shia—as the country’s official religion. The document also recognizes three other faiths as “religions of people of the book”: Zoroastrianism, Judaism, and Christianity. With this provision, the Islamic Republic essentially categorized followers of these faiths as second-class citizens who could enjoy legal rights and protections so long as they refrain from proselytizing their religions and do not otherwise become security threats in the eyes of the regime.

Yet the drafters of the 1979 constitution faced a dramatic dilemma when it came to the Bahai. On one hand, the faith was not tolerable within a Twelver Shia state due to the ideological factors described above. On the other hand, the existence of a sizable Bahai community inside Iran was a sociological fact. This dilemma remains unsolved today, in large part because expressing one’s freedom of conscience is not a recognized right in the republic’s rhetoric or founding legal documents.

Government Pressure and Backlash

In response to this dilemma, the regime has long resorted to systematic oppression, discrimination, and violent intimidation against the Bahai in the hope of forcing them to flee the country en masse. Hundreds of the faith’s leaders and notable figures have been killed, imprisoned, and robbed of their properties over the years. Others have been kept from studying in universities; according to the State Department’s 2020 Country Report on Human Rights Practices in Iran, “Authorities barred Bahai students from higher education and harassed those who studied through the unrecognized online university of the Bahai Institute for Higher Education.” Bahai are also prevented from holding jobs in government-related entities, while propaganda against their faith has become embedded in the state’s educational system, cultural production, and media content. Followers are even barred from peacefully mourning their dead in public and building their own cemeteries.

This all-encompassing pressure is meant to delete the problem instead of solving it. The regime is confident in this tactic because it has been used successfully before against another faith—Jews faced various pressures to leave the Islamic Republic for years, and their numbers are now just one-fourth of what they were before the revolution, when around 100,000 of them called Iran home. The remaining Jewish community is more or less tolerated because it lacks interest in proselytizing Judaism, among other factors.

Yet the Bahai are more numerous in Iran than Jews, largely because of their imperative to proselytize. They are also more demographically scattered and more integrated into general society. And despite all the pressure and injustice they have faced, many of them still have no desire to leave the country, especially the older generation. In their eyes, Iran is both their homeland and the birthplace of their religion, so their spiritual and emotional connection to the country is very strong.

Moreover, the Bahai faith first emerged among elite strata of Iranian society, so it remains quite appealing to elites today, even some Shia clergy. The regime is particularly worried about the faith’s appeal to young Shia, who may see Bahai as more compatible with modern life than traditional Shia teachings—likely a key reason behind the recent uptick in government pressure.

The Islamic Republic has resorted to a totalitarian approach in the hope of snuffing out such challenges. In many cases, political critics and religious “opponents” like the Bahai are deprived of their human and citizenship rights, which essentially dehumanizes them and turns them into stateless subjects. Yet these practices by an avowedly Islamic regime have tarnished the image of Islam in the eyes of many Iranians, especially the younger generation. Conversion to other religions or atheism appears to be increasing in reaction to the regime’s behavior at home and abroad.

Conclusion

Although Tehran cares little about human rights at home, it does care deeply about its international image. In the regime’s view, obfuscating or denying the worst aspects of its dismal human rights record can help build trust with foreign countries, which may in turn allow for more economic activity and ease the risk of absolute delegitimization. Therefore, how Western countries react to the regime’s abuses can make a difference in how minorities are treated. American reactions are paramount, since U.S. sanctions and international penalties that emerge from U.S. pressure are what hurt the regime most. Sanctions that specifically target Iranian human rights abuses have rarely been counterproductive, so there is little to criticize about them in cost-benefit terms.

The U.S. government should also consider emphasizing constitutional reform in Iran, particularly efforts to recognize freedom of conscience and equality of all citizens before the law. Although such issues will presumably be covered in the State Department’s next International Religious Freedom Report (typically issued each April), Washington should address the matter before and beyond that report as well. This means raising human rights issues in any negotiation with Iran, including the ongoing nuclear talks in Vienna. The regime’s abuses on this front should be seen as an inextricable part of its identity, vision, and general behavior—now more than ever, the factors that lead Tehran to violate human rights at home are the same drivers behind its destabilizing regional activities and expansionist military agenda abroad.


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This has been confirmed: 2021 Report on International Religious Freedom: Iran

UNSR Rehman’s July report and NGOs said authorities continued to confiscate Baha’i properties as part of an ongoing state-led campaign of economic persecution against Baha’is. Authorities issued an order in April denying Baha’is permission to bury their dead in empty plots at the Tehran-area cemetery designated for Baha’is, forcing them to bury them at a mass grave site. ... Authorities reportedly continued to deny the Baha’i, Sabean-Mandaean, and Yarsani religious communities, as well as members of other unrecognized religious minority groups, access to education and government employment unless they declared themselves as belonging to one of the country’s recognized religions on their application forms. The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) reported textbooks at all grade levels and across many subjects contained antisemitic material. Government officials continued to disseminate anti-Baha’i and antisemitic messages using traditional and social media. On December 16, the UN General Assembly approved a resolution expressing concern about “ongoing severe limitations and increasing restrictions on the right to freedom of thought, conscience, religion or belief” and “harassment, intimidation, persecution, arbitrary arrests and detention, and incitement to hatred” against recognized and unrecognized religious minorities.

1. The founder of Bahaism was Baha’u’llah, who was considered to be a legitimate descendant of Muhammad and a Shiite.