Does Islam preach forcible conversion?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

To quote:

A completely different topic on a completely different thread.

It seems you view my attitudes against pederasty (essentially social prostitution and similar to Harvey Weinstein's action along with the culture of the "casting couch) and yet you seem quite willing to defend Mohammed's marriage to Aisha.

This exchange has nothing to do with your views on pederasty or the casting couch.

Neither can Plutarch's Lives.

It seems facile remarks are your speciality.

Soy is extremely prevalent in modern diets as an additive, much more so than pulses/legumes were in the ANE

Given the issues surrounding diet in present day western societies I do not see the relevance of your remarks on these additives.
As I noted in an earlier reply:

Nor do we have a great deal of information about the dietary habits of tribal Arabs in the late sixth and early seventh centuries. Although one may assume that cities like Medina provided a variety of foodstuffs.

The comparison between present day diet in the west and that of sixth/seventh century Arabs is therefore rather futile.

[Diogenes]

A completely different topic on a completely different thread.


This exchange has nothing to do with your views on pederasty or the casting couch.

Regarding pederasty, you found my views priggish. You are the one who asked for when you called me priggish. I had never heard of the word until you used it. It seems you enjoy using the word on this forum.

It seems facile remarks are your speciality.

As I have remarked before, if temporal distance from events or persons is an issue, then that issue would apply to Plutarch. It's not a complicated point.

Given the issues surrounding diet in present day western societies I do not see the relevance of your remarks on these additives.
As I noted in an earlier reply:

Nor do we have a great deal of information about the dietary habits of tribal Arabs in the late sixth and early seventh centuries. Although one may assume that cities like Medina provided a variety of foodstuffs.

The comparison between present day diet in the west and that of sixth/seventh century Arabs is therefore rather futile.

Only 4% (or 14 million tons) out of the 350 million tons of soy produced is used outside modern human diet (either directly or indirectly for animal feed). 46 million tons is used for soy oil alone. I can never tell if you're merely being a contrarian and otherwise difficult or actually believe these things. It is absolutely incredulous to believe the ANE diet contained [more] soy than modern foods. A simply exercise would be to peruse the ingredients of items in grocery store or otherwise look for soy allergen disclaimers. Soy is heavily used in "meatless" meat products which are being pushed. I'd eat bugs before I ate those products.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Regarding pederasty, you found my views priggish.

This exchange is not about pederasty.

You are the one who asked for when you called me priggish.

My comment was with regard to this thread and this exchange. Not something I wrote on a totally different thread and a totally different topic.

I had never heard of the word until you used it.

Be grateful. You have learned a new word.

As I have remarked before, if temporal distance from events or persons is an issue, then that issue would apply to Plutarch. It's not a complicated point.

Hadiths are essentially traditions of the supposed sayings of Muhammed. It does not follow that he actually said all of those things, anymore than the various comments attributed to Jesus in the four gospels accurately reflect his remarks.

I can never tell if you're merely being a contrarian and otherwise difficult or actually believe these things. It is absolutely incredulous to believe the ANE diet contained [more] soy than modern foods.

I made a distinction with regard to soya products.

Isoflavones are also found in other pulses/legumes [albeit not to the extent in which they occur in soya beans or soya products] and pulses were widely eaten in the ancient world, especially in the ANE.

We do know that some legumes have a long history in the Near and Middle East, North Africa, and Mediterranean regions. The Roman diet likewise included a lot of pulses.

I repeat that we do not know a great deal about the specific diets of sixth and seventh century CE Arabs, although one might surmise they would not be overly different from those of other peoples in the region at that period.

However, given the importance of the area around Medina for trade, one might expect a variety of foodstuffs to be available - pending ability to purchase them.

[Diogenes]

This exchange is not about pederasty.

My comment was with regard to this thread and this exchange. Not something I wrote on a totally different thread and a totally different topic.

You did not stipulate the parameters of when you allegedly called me priggish. I explicitly quoted your usage of the word. Perhaps you should be more exact next time .

Hadiths are essentially traditions of the supposed sayings of Muhammed. It does not follow that he actually said all of those things, anymore than the various comments attributed to Jesus in the four gospels accurately reflect his remarks.

I would enjoy hearing you saying that to a Muslim.

I made a distinction with regard to soya products.

Isoflavones are also found in other pulses/legumes [albeit not to the extent in which they occur in soya beans or soya products] and pulses were widely eaten in the ancient world, especially in the ANE.

We do know that some legumes have a long history in the Near and Middle East, North Africa, and Mediterranean regions. The Roman diet likewise included a lot of pulses.

I repeat that we do not know a great deal about the specific diets of sixth and seventh century CE Arabs, although one might surmise they would not be overly different from those of other peoples in the region at that period.

However, given the importance of the area around Medina for trade, one might expect a variety of foodstuffs to be available - pending ability to purchase them.

Can you estimate the global production of soy in the 6th and 7th centuries AD? Do you honestly believe it was more than 350 million tons? Was soy used in the production of cooking oil? Were soy cakes fed to livestock? Was soy used in fad products like "meatless" meat? Was soy used in other vegan dishes? It's amusing that instead of conceding to the obvious, you become more and more incredulous.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You did not stipulate the parameters of when you allegedly called me priggish.

My apologies I assumed [clearly mistakenly] that you would comprehend I was referring to this specific exchange.

I would enjoy hearing you saying that to a Muslim.

I have Muslim friends who would agree about many of those hadiths. They are not all fanatics threatening to kill the infidel if we do not convert.

Can you estimate the global production of soy in the 6th and 7th centuries AD? Do you honestly believe it was more than 350 million tons? Was soy used in the production of cooking oil? Were soy cakes fed to livestock? Was soy used in fad products like "meatless" meat? Was soy used in other vegan dishes? It's amusing that instead of conceding to the obvious, you become more and more incredulous.

None of that is relevant. I made it quite clear I was not including soya products when I referring to the diet of the ancient world.

If you misunderstood that as well, then again accept my apologies.

[Diogenes]

My apologies I assumed [clearly mistakenly] that you would comprehend I was referring to this specific exchange.

No where did I suggest you called me priggish in this exchange.

I have Muslim friends who would agree about many of those hadiths. They are not all fanatics threatening to kill the infidel if we do not convert.

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

European Muslims disregarding the texts of their religion, how novel.

None of that is relevant. I made it quite clear I was not including soya products when I referring to the diet of the ancient world.

If you misunderstood that as well, then again accept my apologies.

And yet soya products are highly prevalent in modern diet. How soy is present is either ancient or modern diet is immaterial to the fact the modern diet contains much more soy. You're only excluding soya products because they demonstrate my point.

Thank you for openly admitting you are refusing to include soya products. I will take that exclusion as a concession that the modern diet has much more soy and thus much more isoflavones. I assume this concludes that derailment.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

No where did I suggest you called me priggish in this exchange.

As you replying to this thread it is logical to assume your remarks pertain to this thread.

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

European Muslims disregarding the texts of their religion, how novel.

Turkish and North Africa Muslims.

Thank you for openly admitting you are refusing to include soya products.

What relevance do soya products have to the diets of sixth or seventh century Arabs?

[Diogenes]

As you replying to this thread it is logical to assume your remarks pertain to this thread.

I explicitly stated your willingness to call me priggish in other regards.

Turkish and North Africa Muslims.

I would question if they currently reside in Turkey or North Africa or otherwise live in Europe. Another factor would be if they were from an urban background.

What relevance do soya products have to the diets of sixth or seventh century Arabs?

Soya products are a prominent source of soy and isoflavones in the modern diet. The fact that you have to exclude them from consideration of comparing diets proves my point that soy and isoflavones are more prevalent than modern diets.

If you wish to have the last word, be my guest.

[Sparko]

Your citation does not address the issue of the thread. The parable did not address the breaking of OT laws. The parable is in the context of the penalty of rejecting the prophets and Jesus

Again . . .

No it is not. my conclusion is specific to the parable. Two millennia of 'forced conversions; by sincere Christians who believe sincerely they are doing the will of God including including major churches who recently operated missionary schools that practiced 'forced conversions' of Native Americans and other third world countries. It is far too prevalent to dismiss with a 'hand wave' of they 'just misinterpreted scripture.'

The problem again is the ambiguous nature of ancient tribal scripture that can be interpreted in too many ways. For example, there is not any clear and specific statement forbiding 'forced conversion or slavery.

The problem is the same with Islam two sides argue whether scripture promotes 'forced conversion. The ambiguity of the scriptures can result in interpretation either way. Nonetheless both Christianity and Islam practiced 'forced conversion' over the millennia and believed they were doing it in the name and will of God.

Ah I see, you are on that if you can't refute someone, simply keep repeating yourself kick.

Sure, scripture can be interpreted wrongly by people with an agenda. It was written as an historical document, not a rule book. So if someone wants to twist Jesus words to support their campaign of conversion by the sword, or any other crime, they will indeed to it. That doesn't mean it is the bible's fault or Jesus' teaching. It simply means evil people will twist the bible to their own means.

as has been said before, anyone doing forced conversions under the cover of Christianity would be going against Jesus' teachings, but anyone doing so under Islam would be doing it under the clear direction of Mohammad.

[shunyadragon]

Ah I see, you are on that if you can't refute someone, simply keep repeating yourself kick.

Sure, scripture can be interpreted wrongly by people with an agenda. It was written as an historical document, not a rule book. So if someone wants to twist Jesus words to support their campaign of conversion by the sword, or any other crime, they will indeed to it. That doesn't mean it is the bible's fault or Jesus' teaching. It simply means evil people will twist the bible to their own means.

as has been said before, anyone doing forced conversions under the cover of Christianity would be going against Jesus' teachings, but anyone doing so under Islam would be doing it under the clear direction of Mohammad.

Ah I see, you are on that if you can't refute someone, simply keep repeating yourself kick.

[Sparko]

Ah I see, you are on that if you can't refute someone, simply keep repeating yourself kick.

Thanks for confirming.

[shunyadragon]

Thanks for confirming.

Thanks for confirming

[Sparko]

Thanks for confirming

You know, you repeating what someone else says doesn't make you look clever, it makes you look moronic and childish. Kinda like when Biden does his *whisper* thing.

[shunyadragon]

You know, you repeating what someone else says doesn't make you look clever, it makes you look moronic and childish. Kinda like when Biden does his *whisper* thing.

You know, you repeating what someone else says doesn't make you look clever, it makes you look moronic and childish. Kinda like when Biden does his *whisper* thing.

[Sparko]

You know, you repeating what someone else says doesn't make you look clever, it makes you look moronic and childish. Kinda like when Biden does his *whisper* thing.