Originally posted by Sparko
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Does Islam preach forcible conversion?
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostObviously cherry picked sources taken out of context. Yeah. That's the ticket.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
Hypatia's response seems to be "Yes, Islam does teach forcible conversion, but..." and then goes on to claim irrelevant stuff like "Christians did violence too" or "everyone was violent back then," which can just be ignored.
And absolutely nobody is denying that Christians did violence to. The point (once again) is that when Christians did forced conversions they did so in direct contrast to what Jesus taight. OTOH, when a Muslim won't do forced conversions they are disobeying what Muhammad taught.Last edited by rogue06; 01-20-2023, 08:33 PM.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
She accepts any source that supports her point and denigrates any that doesn't. She is basically a goggle-scholar, using confirmation bias to filter her sources."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
It's an Islamic apologist site who's stated purpose is to promote Islam and as Rogue06 has already shown, lying to infidels is perfectly fine.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostActual history shows that Muhammad raided caravans and took over entire regions using violence to spread Islam. It still goes on today! Just watch the news. Only when a minority in a country does Islam pretend to be peaceful. Once they become a majority they show their true colors. Sharia law comes in effect and anyone opposing Islam is imprisoned or worse. Submit or die. That is what Islam is all about.
Of course violence existed as did Arabic tribal rivalries.
As to the Islamic empire, how do you imagine empires in the ancient world were created? Or do you imagine the Persians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, or Alexander [just to name a few] simply asked nicely?"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
You like to condemn Islam for its violence against non-believers so what is your view of Yusuf Asʾar Yathʾar?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
Can you show where in the Roman Catholic canon where lying to heretics is permitted?
Both Tyndale and Luther had good reason to be cautious over promises of safe-keeping/safe passage."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostI'll admit I'm a bit impressed with her source -- the one that claims that the notion Islam converts by the sword was something made up during the Crusades, which was definitely worth a horse laugh. And of course waves a huge red flag regarding the veracity of other claims they make.
And absolutely nobody is denying that Christians did violence to. The point (once again) is that when Christians did forced conversions they did so in direct contrast to what Jesus taight. OTOH, when a Muslim won't do forced conversions they are disobeying what Muhammad taught.
stacks of books on this
You allege to have read.
We do not know what Muhammed said. The Qur'an was written down centuries later. Prior to the 800s we have only fragments of evidence. Around 800 CE biographies of Muhammed came to written and these were carefully preserved. Before that? We have nothing.
In the seventh century one Christian source dated to 634 CE describes a false prophet leading the Saracens and another such source written around 640 CE refers to Muhammed by name; but it was not until 690 CE that a Caliph erected a monument that included the prophet's name.
Furthermore, and given the later writing of the Qur'an it appears that this edifice of Muslim tradition relies on isnads for its veracity, but can they be trusted?
The Qur'an is silent on Gabriel's revelations or any supernatural voice. The figure does appear in some verses but there is no mention of that figure being the messenger of supernatural revelations.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Nec aliqua sibi fides, aut promissio de jure naturali, divino, et humano fuerit in prejudicium Catholicae fidei observanda. Council of Constance 1415-18. The doctrine had also been promulgated by the third Lateran Council of 1147 and was later effectively confirmed by the Council of Trent [1545 7 1563]. At the third Lateran Council the words were non quasi juramenta sed quasi perjuria.
Both Tyndale and Luther had good reason to be cautious over promises of safe-keeping/safe passage.
The issue at hand has been the teachings of Muhammad and other sacred writings of Islam. Comparisons to Christianity would necessarily need to come from the Bible.
P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
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Originally posted by Rational Gaze View PostIf one consults the Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod, one finds that Islam is responsible for more than half of all religious conflicts. Of the 1,763 wars chronicled, 123 are religious conflicts, or roughly 6.98%. That number drops to 3.23% if we exclude Islam.
What one does find is this: https://apholt.com/2018/12/26/counti...pedia-of-wars/
I would like to know on what evidence Holt Ph.D contends that there were governments in the eighth millennium BCE.
However, browsing those volumes they appear [on occasion] to have spread themselves rather thinly and some entries amount to little more than brief thumbnails whose "Further reading" leaves something to be desired.
The entry on Jericho [a massive topic in its own right] consists in that encyclopaedia of three short paragraphs, that subject also provides the earliest date of 8000 BCE in the Chronology section. However, that entry offers just one source for "Further reading", namely David Neev, The Destruction of Sodom, Gomorrah, and Jericho: Geological, Climatological, and Archaeological Background, New York: Oxford University Press, 1995.
As a comparison if one consults the the entry on Jericho in volume 3 of The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary one finds a bibliography running to a page+.
Likewise their entry on The Trojan War [all four short paragraphs] relies entirely on the Iliad and offers as "Further reading" : Jonathan S. Burgess, Tradition of the Trojan War in Homer and the Epic Cycle and Michael Wood In Search of the Trojan War."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
So nothing from the RCC canon, ie the RCC Bible.
Originally posted by Diogenes View PostThe issue at hand has been the teachings of Muhammad and other sacred writings of Islam.
Originally posted by Diogenes View PostComparisons to Christianity would necessarily need to come from the Bible.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostIf one consults the three volumes of The Encyclopedia of Wars one finds no such thing. Those volumes simply list wars.My Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B0719RS8BK
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostYou have a rather naïve view of religious history. There is nothing in the bible concerning triune deities either. Periphrastic language found in John's gospel is another matter.
And we do not know precisely what Muhammed might have said.
Like the triune deity?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
You also need to read a little more. I am still waiting for citations from that
stacks of books on this
You allege to have read.
Where do you think I got all those citations from?
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostWe do not know what Muhammed said. The Qur'an was written down centuries later.
Now given that Uthman died in 656 B.C., roughly 20 years after Muhammad, from which orifice did you extract your "knowledge" that it wasn't written down until centuries later?
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostPrior to the 800s we have only fragments of evidence. Around 800 CE biographies of Muhammed came to written and these were carefully preserved. Before that? We have nothing.
The Birmingham qur'an has been radiocarbon dated to between 568 and 645A.D. Given that Muhammad died in 632 the earlier date is untenable but we're looking at something written very soon after his death.
And even the "fragments" are often quite extensive consisting of dozens of pages spread out in multiple collections: Codex Parisino-petropolitanus
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostIn the seventh century one Christian source dated to 634 CE describes a false prophet leading the Saracens and another such source written around 640 CE refers to Muhammed by name; but it was not until 690 CE that a Caliph erected a monument that included the prophet's name.
I mean what possible relevance is there to when he's first mentioned in the Christian west? Or when a Caliph erected a monument to him? Was this yet another, albeit shorter than usual, instance of your need to show "I knows stuff" even when so far you're getting everything hilariously and obviously wrong?
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostFurthermore, and given the later writing of the Qur'an it appears that this edifice of Muslim tradition relies on isnads for its veracity, but can they be trusted?
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe Qur'an is silent on Gabriel's revelations or any supernatural voice. The figure does appear in some verses but there is no mention of that figure being the messenger of supernatural revelations.
SAY [O Prophet]: "Whosoever is an enemy of Gabriel -who,, verily, by God's leave, has brought down upon thy heart this [divine writ] which confirms the truth of whatever there still remains [of earlier revelations], and is a guidance and a glad tiding for the believers-
Mustafa Khattab's translation is a bit clearer if you couldn't understand that
Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Whoever is an enemy of Gabriel should know that he revealed this ˹Quran˺ to your heart by Allah’s Will, confirming what came before it—a guide and good news for the believers.”
And Safi Kakas' version:
Say, "Those that are enemies to Gabriel should know that he has brought it [the Qur'an] down to your heart by God's permission, confirming what is already revealed and a guidance and good news to believers.
Any more ignorance that you wish to show case?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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