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Does Islam preach forcible conversion?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Muslim%E2%80%93Meccan_conflict

    The early Muslim–Meccan conflict refer to a series of raids in which the Islamic prophet Muhammad and his companions participated. The raids were generally offensive[1] and carried out to gather intelligence or seize the trade goods of caravans financed by the Quraysh. His followers were also impoverished.[2] The raids were intended to harm the economy and in turn the offensive capabilities of Mecca by Muhammad. He also broke an Arab tradition of not attacking one's own kinsmen by raiding caravans.
    ...
    According to William Montgomery Watt and the Muslim scholar Ibn Kathir, the Quran verse [Quran 22:39][8][9][10] was the earliest verse permitting Muslims to fight. However, he says there was a "disinclination" among the Muslims to follow the permission to fight, but they were given an incentive, after the Muslims were told that God prefers fighters to those who sit still and remain at home, and that for fighters there is a reward in paradise (Jannah)
    ...
    It is mentioned in Ibn Hisham and Ibn Ishaq's biography of Muhammad (the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad from the 7th century), that for these caravan raids Muhammad gave permission to "plunder" the caravans of theirs enemies and seize their goods and property(s) and said:

    Go forth against this caravan; it may be that God will grant you plunder [Ibn Ishaq and Ibn Hisham Sirat Rasul Allah, p. 95, translation by Folio Society][17]

    The Muslim scholar Al-Waqidi also mentions in his Kitab al-Tarikh wa al-Maghazi ("Book of History and Campaigns") that Muhammad said: "This caravan of the Quraysh holds their wealth, and perhaps God will grant it to you as a plunder".[
    ...
    The fourth raid, known as the invasion of Waddan, was the first offensive in which Muhammad took part personally with 70, mostly Muhajir,troops.[12] It is said that twelve months after moving to Medina, Muhammad himself led a caravan raid to Waddan (Al-Abwa).
    ...
    The fifth raid, known as the invasion of Buwat, was also commanded by Muhammad.[14] A month after the raid at al-Abwa, he personally led 200 men including Muhajirs and Ansars to Bawat, a place on the caravan route of the Quraysh merchants. A herd of 1,500 camels, accompanied by 100 riders under the leadership of Umayyah ibn Khalaf, a Quraysh.[23]

    According to Muslim scholars Ibn Hisham and Ibn Ishaq's the purpose of these raid were to plunder this rich Quraysh caravan, it is mentioned in their biography of Muhammad (the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad from the 7th century) that for these caravan raids Muhammad gave permission to "plunder" the caravans of theirs enemies and seize their goods and property(s) and said: "Go forth against this caravan; it may be that Allah will grant you plunder.[17][24] The Muslim scholar Al-Waqidi also mentions the same.[18]
    ...
    The Nakhla Raid was the seventh Caravan Raid and the first successful raid against the Meccans. Abdullah ibn Jahsh was the Commander .[27][28]

    It took place in Rajab 2 A.H., i.e. January 624 A.H. Muhammad despatched ‘Abdullah bin Jahsh Asadi to Nakhlah at the head of 12 Emigrants with six camels.[20][29][30][31]
    ...
    Aftermath after new Quran verse revealed
    According to Ibn Kathir Prophet Muhammad refused to accept ransom until he was sure his companions were safe. He also threatened to kill the captives "For we fear for their safety with you. If you kill them, we will kill your people", Ibn Kathir cites Ibn Ishaqs 7th century biography of Prophet Muhammad as the primary source for this quote.[33] The Muslim scholar Muhammad Husayn Haykal also mentions this and said the verse which permitted Muslims to fight in the months which were considered sacred by the Arab pagans (i.e. 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) had "brought the Muslims relief", and that then Prophet Muhammad had accepted his share of the booty[35]

    Soon after his release, al-Hakam bin Kaysan, one of the two prisoners captured, became a Muslim.[20][25][37] Mubarakpuri mentions that the Quran verse 47:20 was also sent down, dispraising the hypocrites and cowards who are scared of fighting, and exhorted Muslims to fight.[38]
    ...


    © Copyright Original Source

    Obviously cherry picked sources taken out of context. Yeah. That's the ticket.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Obviously cherry picked sources taken out of context. Yeah. That's the ticket.
      Hypatia's response seems to be "Yes, Islam does teach forcible conversion, but..." and then goes on to claim irrelevant stuff like "Christians did violence too" or "everyone was violent back then," which can just be ignored.



      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post

        Hypatia's response seems to be "Yes, Islam does teach forcible conversion, but..." and then goes on to claim irrelevant stuff like "Christians did violence too" or "everyone was violent back then," which can just be ignored.

        I'll admit I'm a bit impressed with her source -- the one that claims that the notion Islam converts by the sword was something made up during the Crusades, which was definitely worth a horse laugh. And of course waves a huge red flag regarding the veracity of other claims they make.

        And absolutely nobody is denying that Christians did violence to. The point (once again) is that when Christians did forced conversions they did so in direct contrast to what Jesus taight. OTOH, when a Muslim won't do forced conversions they are disobeying what Muhammad taught.
        Last edited by rogue06; 01-20-2023, 08:33 PM.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post


          She accepts any source that supports her point and denigrates any that doesn't. She is basically a goggle-scholar, using confirmation bias to filter her sources.
          You like to condemn Islam for its violence against non-believers so what is your view of Yusuf Asʾar Yathʾar?
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post

            It's an Islamic apologist site who's stated purpose is to promote Islam and as Rogue06 has already shown, lying to infidels is perfectly fine.
            Like Catholics to heretics?

            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Actual history shows that Muhammad raided caravans and took over entire regions using violence to spread Islam. It still goes on today! Just watch the news. Only when a minority in a country does Islam pretend to be peaceful. Once they become a majority they show their true colors. Sharia law comes in effect and anyone opposing Islam is imprisoned or worse. Submit or die. That is what Islam is all about.
            You need to so some more reading and not rely on popular sites. You could start with Crone - she was not a Muslim.

            Of course violence existed as did Arabic tribal rivalries.

            As to the Islamic empire, how do you imagine empires in the ancient world were created? Or do you imagine the Persians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, or Alexander [just to name a few] simply asked nicely?
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
              Like Catholics to heretics?

              Can you show where in the Roman Catholic canon where lying to heretics is permitted?



              P1) If , then I win.

              P2)

              C) I win.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                You like to condemn Islam for its violence against non-believers so what is your view of Yusuf Asʾar Yathʾar?
                That he drives an ocean liner-sized hole through the belief that early hostility between Christians and Jews was all one-sided.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Diogenes View Post


                  Can you show where in the Roman Catholic canon where lying to heretics is permitted?


                  Nec aliqua sibi fides, aut promissio de jure naturali, divino, et humano fuerit in prejudicium Catholicae fidei observanda. Council of Constance 1415-18. The doctrine had also been promulgated by the third Lateran Council of 1147 and was later effectively confirmed by the Council of Trent [1545 7 1563]. At the third Lateran Council the words were non quasi juramenta sed quasi perjuria.

                  Both Tyndale and Luther had good reason to be cautious over promises of safe-keeping/safe passage.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    I'll admit I'm a bit impressed with her source -- the one that claims that the notion Islam converts by the sword was something made up during the Crusades, which was definitely worth a horse laugh. And of course waves a huge red flag regarding the veracity of other claims they make.

                    And absolutely nobody is denying that Christians did violence to. The point (once again) is that when Christians did forced conversions they did so in direct contrast to what Jesus taight. OTOH, when a Muslim won't do forced conversions they are disobeying what Muhammad taught.
                    You also need to read a little more. I am still waiting for citations from that

                    stacks of books on this


                    You allege to have read.

                    We do not know what Muhammed said. The Qur'an was written down centuries later. Prior to the 800s we have only fragments of evidence. Around 800 CE biographies of Muhammed came to written and these were carefully preserved. Before that? We have nothing.

                    In the seventh century one Christian source dated to 634 CE describes a false prophet leading the Saracens and another such source written around 640 CE refers to Muhammed by name; but it was not until 690 CE that a Caliph erected a monument that included the prophet's name.

                    Furthermore, and given the later writing of the Qur'an it appears that this edifice of Muslim tradition relies on isnads for its veracity, but can they be trusted?

                    The Qur'an is silent on Gabriel's revelations or any supernatural voice. The figure does appear in some verses but there is no mention of that figure being the messenger of supernatural revelations.
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      Nec aliqua sibi fides, aut promissio de jure naturali, divino, et humano fuerit in prejudicium Catholicae fidei observanda. Council of Constance 1415-18. The doctrine had also been promulgated by the third Lateran Council of 1147 and was later effectively confirmed by the Council of Trent [1545 7 1563]. At the third Lateran Council the words were non quasi juramenta sed quasi perjuria.

                      Both Tyndale and Luther had good reason to be cautious over promises of safe-keeping/safe passage.
                      So nothing from the RCC canon, ie the RCC Bible.

                      The issue at hand has been the teachings of Muhammad and other sacred writings of Islam. Comparisons to Christianity would necessarily need to come from the Bible.
                      P1) If , then I win.

                      P2)

                      C) I win.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Rational Gaze View Post
                        If one consults the Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod, one finds that Islam is responsible for more than half of all religious conflicts. Of the 1,763 wars chronicled, 123 are religious conflicts, or roughly 6.98%. That number drops to 3.23% if we exclude Islam.
                        If one consults the three volumes of The Encyclopedia of Wars one finds no such thing. Those volumes simply list wars.



                        What one does find is this: https://apholt.com/2018/12/26/counti...pedia-of-wars/







                        I would like to know on what evidence Holt Ph.D contends that there were governments in the eighth millennium BCE.

                        However, browsing those volumes they appear [on occasion] to have spread themselves rather thinly and some entries amount to little more than brief thumbnails whose "Further reading" leaves something to be desired.

                        The entry on Jericho [a massive topic in its own right] consists in that encyclopaedia of three short paragraphs, that subject also provides the earliest date of 8000 BCE in the Chronology section. However, that entry offers just one source for "Further reading", namely David Neev, The Destruction of Sodom, Gomorrah, and Jericho: Geological, Climatological, and Archaeological Background, New York: Oxford University Press, 1995.

                        As a comparison if one consults the the entry on Jericho in volume 3 of The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary one finds a bibliography running to a page+.

                        Likewise their entry on The Trojan War [all four short paragraphs] relies entirely on the Iliad and offers as "Further reading" : Jonathan S. Burgess, Tradition of the Trojan War in Homer and the Epic Cycle and Michael Wood In Search of the Trojan War.
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                          So nothing from the RCC canon, ie the RCC Bible.
                          You have a rather naïve view of religious history. There is nothing in the bible concerning triune deities either. Periphrastic language found in John's gospel is another matter.

                          Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                          The issue at hand has been the teachings of Muhammad and other sacred writings of Islam.
                          And we do not know precisely what Muhammed might have said.

                          Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                          Comparisons to Christianity would necessarily need to come from the Bible.
                          Like the triune deity?

                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            If one consults the three volumes of The Encyclopedia of Wars one finds no such thing. Those volumes simply list wars.
                            I like how how you assert I am wrong and then immediately prove me right in the very next breath. Good job.
                            My Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B0719RS8BK

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              You have a rather naïve view of religious history. There is nothing in the bible concerning triune deities either. Periphrastic language found in John's gospel is another matter.

                              And we do not know precisely what Muhammed might have said.

                              Like the triune deity?
                              The Father, Logos, the Holy Spirit. Each is God. Each is identifiably an individual. God is one. God as Trinity is not explicitly spelt out in the Bible, it is merely ineluctable.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                You also need to read a little more. I am still waiting for citations from that

                                stacks of books on this


                                You allege to have read.
                                What part of living near a large university library that until recently had a huge collection of texts on religion (which would include Islam) is too difficult to grasp?

                                Where do you think I got all those citations from?

                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                We do not know what Muhammed said. The Qur'an was written down centuries later.
                                Huh? While not in book form Muhammad's immediate family and followers took his writings and put them together to form the qur'an. A short time later, his cousin and son-in-law, when he was Caliph, Uthman ibn Affan collected the copies to make the "official" version. While there were complaints about what was excluded due to insufficient attestation, nobody accused him of altering the text.

                                Now given that Uthman died in 656 B.C., roughly 20 years after Muhammad, from which orifice did you extract your "knowledge" that it wasn't written down until centuries later?

                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                Prior to the 800s we have only fragments of evidence. Around 800 CE biographies of Muhammed came to written and these were carefully preserved. Before that? We have nothing.
                                Mein Gott you sure do love to spotlight your ignorance

                                The Birmingham qur'an has been radiocarbon dated to between 568 and 645A.D. Given that Muhammad died in 632 the earlier date is untenable but we're looking at something written very soon after his death.

                                And even the "fragments" are often quite extensive consisting of dozens of pages spread out in multiple collections: Codex Parisino-petropolitanus



                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                In the seventh century one Christian source dated to 634 CE describes a false prophet leading the Saracens and another such source written around 640 CE refers to Muhammed by name; but it was not until 690 CE that a Caliph erected a monument that included the prophet's name.
                                So like you've suggested about Peter and Paul, are you positing that Muhammad is a fictional person?

                                I mean what possible relevance is there to when he's first mentioned in the Christian west? Or when a Caliph erected a monument to him? Was this yet another, albeit shorter than usual, instance of your need to show "I knows stuff" even when so far you're getting everything hilariously and obviously wrong?

                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                Furthermore, and given the later writing of the Qur'an it appears that this edifice of Muslim tradition relies on isnads for its veracity, but can they be trusted?
                                Given that this notion of the "Qur'an was written down centuries later" is nothing but a figment of your imagination, we don't need to do anything of the sort.

                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                The Qur'an is silent on Gabriel's revelations or any supernatural voice. The figure does appear in some verses but there is no mention of that figure being the messenger of supernatural revelations.
                                Surah Al-Baqarah (sometimes Al-Baqara) (2:97):

                                SAY [O Prophet]: "Whosoever is an enemy of Gabriel -who,, verily, by God's leave, has brought down upon thy heart this [divine writ] which confirms the truth of whatever there still remains [of earlier revelations], and is a guidance and a glad tiding for the believers-


                                Mustafa Khattab's translation is a bit clearer if you couldn't understand that

                                Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Whoever is an enemy of Gabriel should know that he revealed this ˹Quran˺ to your heart by Allah’s Will, confirming what came before it—a guide and good news for the believers.”


                                And Safi Kakas' version:

                                Say, "Those that are enemies to Gabriel should know that he has brought it [the Qur'an] down to your heart by God's permission, confirming what is already revealed and a guidance and good news to believers.


                                Any more ignorance that you wish to show case?



                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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