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Does Islam preach forcible conversion?

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  • Originally posted by eider View Post
    Well that put's tabibito's point to bed nicely.
    Shia Islam makes up about 10%, so tabibito wrote in some tangled argument that it could count as any kind of example about Islam.
    Are you saying that the Shiites aren't representative of Islam? While a significant minority they are still by far and away the second largest denomination.

    Originally posted by eider View Post
    OK....... so how many different Christian denominations would you say that there might be in the World?
    Not sure. It depends on how they are counted, but you don't include every Christian group as a separate denomination.


    Basically the tens of thousands of different denominations claim is a myth that keeps growing with the telling, and to say that number is grossly inflated is an understatement and the methodology employed to arrive at these figures is ridiculous. It is based on a radically open definition of what "denomination" is. For instance under the definition used to arrive at that number if there two independent Baptist churches on each side of the street, each one of them is considered a different denomination. In fact every independent Baptist church is deemed to be a different denomination by the definition used to arrive at this figure.

    The numbers for the World Christian Encyclopedia list was supplied by the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary and it is telling how they arrived at their claims which can be found in the Methodology from the Atlas of Global Christianity resource ( smiley hat tip.gif to Adrift)

    Source: Methodology from the Atlas of Global Christianity

    First, for each major tradition, a denomination present in more than one country was counted as one denomination per each country. Thus, for example, the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia was considered a separate denomination from the Russian Orthodox Church in Kazakhstan. Second, the Anglican tradition was considered to consist of one denomination in each country in which it is present (169 in all). Third, the Roman Catholic Church was considered to consist of 239 denominations; however, about half of all Christians globally are Roman Catholics.

    © Copyright Original Source



    So they count as a different denomination for each country they are in. IOW, Catholics in the U.S. are a different denomination than those in Mexico. And both are different denominations from those in Spain. And the Catholics in France are a separate denomination than the Catholics in the U.S., Mexico and Spain. And on and on. A case can definitely be made for this regarding some Orthodox churches but definitely not with the RCC.

    Further, within Roman Catholicism there are claimed to be a number of different "denominations" since those that cobble together these lists tend to call the various orders within it separate denominations. They all follow Roman Catholic teachings but have differences that could almost be called cosmetic. That's like going to two Southern Baptist, or Methodist or Lutheran churches across town from one another and noticing the differences in how they do things and then declaring them separate denominations.

    Moreover, every single Bible society or church club is also considered to be a different denomination than the church or churches that it is affiliated with.

    Further, many groups that aren't even Christian often get added in to help inflate the number. Some are Christian denominations in the same way that Islam is a Christian or Jewish denomination.

    As an example, take a look at the Google entry List of Lutheran denominations.

    FWIU, most of those Lutheran "denominations" are anything but. Instead many are "Associations" -- some of which have members from different Lutheran denominations (the Missouri Synod and ECLA) and some consisting of a single denomination.

    Most Lutherans I know (most of my family) will tell you there are two denominations (those mentioned) -- at least as far as the U.S. goes -- although there used to be three, but the ECLA was formed when two of them merged in the late 80s.

    And it looks like Wikipedia is separating Lutheran Churches into different denominations based upon country or language. For example, the Apostolic Lutheran Church of America is for Finnish speaking Americans being unofficially linked to the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland. If you spoke Finnish you would be pretty hard pressed to find any difference between them and the ECLA

    Finally, if you want to understand just how ridiculous these figures are, try naming just twenty Christian denominations from memory alone. If there were ten thousands of them someone shouldn't have any difficulty rattling off a hundred so a mere twenty ought to be a real breeze.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by eider View Post
      Lying to others is as lying to others occurs:-
      I wonder how many times that Christianity has told ,,,'We come in peace!'
      Paul's guidance to Christians does seem to read sweetly, (I just looked through a list of his rules and advice) but Christianity is what it does and has done and persecution by Christianity has a horrid history.
      What you continue to deliberately ignore is that in Islam lying through your teeth is not only acceptable but considered honorable. After all, Muhammad himself lied to people so obviously lying must be a good thing -- but only if it is done to non-Muslims.

      Originally posted by eider View Post
      Don't try to tell me about struggles between Islam, Buddhists and Hindus...... for 2000 years Christian anti-Semitism has been horrific, just look at the Gospel of John.
      It is probably best that you don't trying speaking about things you obviously know nothing about.

      Originally posted by eider View Post
      ....... ugh.... are you trying to choke me? My laughter subsided in to gasps for air......... I need a nice mug of tea.
      I'm no fan of Islam now, but that is the result of researching it. When I started I was very open to it thanks to what I read (and saw on their numerous PBS specials) by Joseph Campbell and Huston Smith.

      But they didn't go into details, painting a very generalized picture. It was when I started digging down and found that how it is typically portrayed to westerners is not even remotely accurate -- and that goes directly back to their doctrine of taqqiya/idtirar -- that my view soured.

      Maybe when you find the time you can bother yourself to actually finish the OP and the second post where I discuss this in detail and provide multiple examples you can then ignore


      Originally posted by eider View Post
      Iranian Bahais seem to be very well off...... I think that there are about 300,000 in total.
      You didn't bother to read about the persecution they are facing where they are now literally in an environment where they have NO rights and "can be attacked and persecuted in Iran without consequences for perpetrators."

      The persecution of Baháʼís in Iran intensified greatly following the 1979 Islamic revolution.[91] The regime that took power essentially does not allow members of the Baháʼí Faith, "even in theory, to exercise freely their religion and to exist and function as an organized religious community."[92] When the new Islamic republic's constitution was drawn up in April 1979, certain rights for Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian minorities in Iran were specifically mentioned and protected. Ominously, no mention whatsoever was made of the Baháʼí community, Iran's largest religious minority. Under Iran's brand of Islamic ideology, this lack of constitutional protection, in conjunction with unmitigated religious prejudice, has meant Baháʼís effectively have no rights of any sort, and can be attacked and persecuted in Iran without consequences for perpetrators.[93]


      And yet you liken it to the Baha'i's "confronting" Islam in the country.

      Originally posted by eider View Post
      But Bahai's future in Iran as a religion does not seem very bright, which is probably why Abdul Baha brought it to America after WWI and Shoghi Effendi spread it far and wide around the world.
      Iran has been very careful with Bahai irritations since the overthrow of the Shah.... The Shah's rule was very harsh on Bahai, I think.
      It got much harsher after the shah as the entry from Wikipedia supplied above attests ("The persecution of Baháʼís in Iran intensified greatly following the 1979 Islamic revolution").

      Originally posted by eider View Post
      Iran sees Bahai as a political enemy and no more, yet Bahais survive well in Iran .
      Just as long as they can keep their religion hidden and secret.

      Maybe you can post a picture of a Baha'i place of worship in Iran.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • Just a note, but another important factor to consider is that unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses where there is a call for violence, nearly all of the verses of violence in the qur'an are open-ended. They aren't restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text but they are instead considered part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and regarded as being just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the qur'an.

        IOW, in the OT, war was mandated against a very specific group at a very specific time. In the qur'an it is mandated against all infidels and continues for as long as there are non-Muslims, unchanged from the day it was first written.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          The Shiites also accept the hadiths although theirs are not precisely the same as the Sunnis giving precedence to those attributed to Ali and Fatima whereas the Sunni view that anything from any of the companions is equal.


          No. Who told you this?
          I'd still like an answer to where eider got the idea that the Shiites reject the hadiths and accept only the qur'an.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            I'd still like an answer to where eider got the idea that the Shiites reject the hadiths and accept only the qur'an.
            From the same place that he gets the idea that a city built on a hill necessarily means it's built at the very peak of said hill.
            We know J6 wasn’t peaceful because they didn’t set the building on fire.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Are you saying that the Shiites aren't representative of Islam? While a significant minority they are still by far and away the second largest denomination.
              No!
              Of course Shia Islam represents Islam, but without hundreds of hadiths which are included in Sunni Islam.
              Tabibito pointed out that Shia Islam constitutes about 10% of the whole and so my mention of it didn't count and I didn't get a prize!

              Not sure. It depends on how they are counted, but you don't include every Christian group as a separate denomination.

              Basically the tens of thousands of different denominations claim is a myth that keeps growing with the telling, and to say that number is grossly inflated is an understatement and the methodology employed to arrive at these figures is ridiculous. It is based on a radically open definition of what "denomination" is. For instance under the definition used to arrive at that number if there two independent Baptist churches on each side of the street, each one of them is considered a different denomination. In fact every independent Baptist church is deemed to be a different denomination by the definition used to arrive at this figure.

              The numbers for the World Christian Encyclopedia list was supplied by the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary and it is telling how they arrived at their claims which can be found in the Methodology from the Atlas of Global Christianity resource ( smiley hat tip.gif to Adrift)

              Source: Methodology from the Atlas of Global Christianity

              First, for each major tradition, a denomination present in more than one country was counted as one denomination per each country. Thus, for example, the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia was considered a separate denomination from the Russian Orthodox Church in Kazakhstan. Second, the Anglican tradition was considered to consist of one denomination in each country in which it is present (169 in all). Third, the Roman Catholic Church was considered to consist of 239 denominations; however, about half of all Christians globally are Roman Catholics.

              © Copyright Original Source



              So they count as a different denomination for each country they are in. IOW, Catholics in the U.S. are a different denomination than those in Mexico. And both are different denominations from those in Spain. And the Catholics in France are a separate denomination than the Catholics in the U.S., Mexico and Spain. And on and on. A case can definitely be made for this regarding some Orthodox churches but definitely not with the RCC.

              Further, within Roman Catholicism there are claimed to be a number of different "denominations" since those that cobble together these lists tend to call the various orders within it separate denominations. They all follow Roman Catholic teachings but have differences that could almost be called cosmetic. That's like going to two Southern Baptist, or Methodist or Lutheran churches across town from one another and noticing the differences in how they do things and then declaring them separate denominations.

              Moreover, every single Bible society or church club is also considered to be a different denomination than the church or churches that it is affiliated with.

              Further, many groups that aren't even Christian often get added in to help inflate the number. Some are Christian denominations in the same way that Islam is a Christian or Jewish denomination.

              As an example, take a look at the Google entry List of Lutheran denominations.

              FWIU, most of those Lutheran "denominations" are anything but. Instead many are "Associations" -- some of which have members from different Lutheran denominations (the Missouri Synod and ECLA) and some consisting of a single denomination.

              Most Lutherans I know (most of my family) will tell you there are two denominations (those mentioned) -- at least as far as the U.S. goes -- although there used to be three, but the ECLA was formed when two of them merged in the late 80s.

              And it looks like Wikipedia is separating Lutheran Churches into different denominations based upon country or language. For example, the Apostolic Lutheran Church of America is for Finnish speaking Americans being unofficially linked to the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland. If you spoke Finnish you would be pretty hard pressed to find any difference between them and the ECLA

              Finally, if you want to understand just how ridiculous these figures are, try naming just twenty Christian denominations from memory alone. If there were ten thousands of them someone shouldn't have any difficulty rattling off a hundred so a mere twenty ought to be a real breeze.
              I don't have any strong opinion about how many creeds or denominations there might be........ I couldn't care less, but when a member mentions that Shia Islam is not any representative part of Islam because it only comprises about 10% of all (Tabibito) I asked what denomination he belongs to ............... and he didn't give me one.

              I say again.... I have heard/read that there are thousands of different creeds, churches and denominations in Christianity.... I only know of several but many of these deny some or all of the others. Many who think of themselves as Christians would not be able to post on the 'Christian-only' sections here.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                What you continue to deliberately ignore is that in Islam lying through your teeth is not only acceptable but considered honorable. After all, Muhammad himself lied to people so obviously lying must be a good thing -- but only if it is done to non-Muslims.
                We most of us, lie to our enemies.......... and we even boast about it!
                When we (Christian) westerners landed in the Americas, we sure lied to the indigenous people...... again and again. And we bust treaty after treaty.

                Now please stop telling us all how horrid slam is........

                It is probably best that you don't trying speaking about things you obviously know nothing about.
                The gospel of John turned the enemies of Jesus from the corrupted and villainous priesthood in to '''/'' THE JEWS!
                And the people clamouring for Jesus's death.......... THE JEWS!
                You just don't realise what this did over thousands of years.

                I'm no fan of Islam now, but that is the result of researching it.
                So long as you never get chosen to represent your faith at any religious convention for greater peace and understanding......fine.


                You didn't bother to read about the persecution they are facing where they are now literally in an environment where they have NO rights and "can be attacked and persecuted in Iran without consequences for perpetrators."

                The persecution of Baháʼís in Iran intensified greatly following the 1979 Islamic revolution.[91] The regime that took power essentially does not allow members of the Baháʼí Faith, "even in theory, to exercise freely their religion and to exist and function as an organized religious community."[92] When the new Islamic republic's constitution was drawn up in April 1979, certain rights for Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian minorities in Iran were specifically mentioned and protected. Ominously, no mention whatsoever was made of the Baháʼí community, Iran's largest religious minority. Under Iran's brand of Islamic ideology, this lack of constitutional protection, in conjunction with unmitigated religious prejudice, has meant Baháʼís effectively have no rights of any sort, and can be attacked and persecuted in Iran without consequences for perpetrators.[93]


                And yet you liken it to the Baha'i's "confronting" Islam in the country.
                Please don't display your ignorance about Bahais in Iran. Bahai was written and built to take over Islam, and so the religious government of Iran does not consider Bahai to be a religion but a political movement.
                Despite all this adversity Bahais live on in Iran in huge numbers, mostly are professional people.

                My late wife of twenty years was a Bahai....... we knew Bahais in Iran quite well. Much of that wiki doc you posted I have already mentioned, such as seats for Christian and Jewish representation at government level....yes, and Zoroastrian.

                It got much harsher after the shah as the entry from Wikipedia supplied above attests ("The persecution of Baháʼís in Iran intensified greatly following the 1979 Islamic revolution").
                I said that it was not good before the shah left........ you need to read what I write.


                Just as long as they can keep their religion hidden and secret.
                It isn't secret! It's a long time since a Bahai was hanged for proselytizing

                Maybe you can post a picture of a Baha'i place of worship in Iran.
                Don't display such ignorance. Bahais worship in their homes, just as they do where I live.

                There is a problem with Bahai firesides there because meetings of more than a few people are banned........

                Comment


                • Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post

                  From the same place that he gets the idea that a city built on a hill necessarily means it's built at the very peak of said hill.
                  Oh no! Not another one!
                  Do you really believe that Nazareth was a 'city'?
                  Tabibito mentioned or showed article that Nazareth was probably about 4 acres in size which is actually quite a big hill-top community.

                  It's much better to address folks directly, rather than chucking comments in the third person. Or did you need to hide behind other members, possibly?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by eider View Post

                    Oh no! Not another one!
                    Do you really believe that Nazareth was a 'city'?
                    Tabibito mentioned or showed article that Nazareth was probably about 4 acres in size which is actually quite a big hill-top community.

                    It's much better to address folks directly, rather than chucking comments in the third person. Or did you need to hide behind other members, possibly?
                    Oh please. It was pointed out that the brow of a hill is not its summit. I did forget to mention that "the" isn't in the source texts - a more exacting translation would have "a" brow.
                    ηγαγον αυτον εως οφρυος του ορους
                    (they) led him unto ... as far as brow of the hill
                    No particular brow is specified. εως της οφρυος would specify a particular brow. While context does often demand a definite article in English where Koine Greek does not have one, "on the hill" does not mean "on the summit." Most certainly, if the city was built on the brow in question, a different syntax would be needed, and "brow" would need a definite article.

                    The city was simply built (somewhere) on the hill.
                    Last edited by tabibito; 03-02-2023, 05:17 AM.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      Oh please. It was pointed out that the brow of a hill is not its summit. I did forget to mention that "the" isn't in the source texts - a more exacting translation would have "a" brow. [TABLE="class: MsoTableGrid"]
                      My post never mentioned any 'brow;', it mentioned your post which told of a link that mentioned the site of Nazareth measured about 4 acres.

                      But since you continue to try and make Nazareth a city in the bowl of hills, or on the side of a hill, please just read Luke's account.

                      Luke: {4:28} And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, {4:29} And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong........

                      Keep on with your waffle, do that. But you are challenging the bible, methinks.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by eider View Post

                        My post never mentioned any 'brow;', it mentioned your post which told of a link that mentioned the site of Nazareth measured about 4 acres.

                        But since you continue to try and make Nazareth a city in the bowl of hills, or on the side of a hill, please just read Luke's account.

                        Luke: {4:28} And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, {4:29} And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong........

                        Keep on with your waffle, do that. But you are challenging the bible, methinks.
                        And as has been pointed out, the text does not say that the city was on the brow. It says that the brow and the city are on the same hill. As has also been pointed out, a brow (ὀφρύς) is not a summit (κορυφή).
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

                          You didn't bother to read about the persecution they are facing where they are now literally in an environment where they have NO rights and "can be attacked and persecuted in Iran without consequences for perpetrators."

                          And yet you liken it to the Baha'i's "confronting" Islam in the country.

                          It got much harsher after the shah as the entry from Wikipedia supplied above attests ("The persecution of Baháʼís in Iran intensified greatly following the 1979 Islamic revolution").

                          Just as long as they can keep their religion hidden and secret.

                          Maybe you can post a picture of a Baha'i place of worship in Iran.
                          Well now......... You've backed yourself up in to a corner, so let's see you wriggle out of it.

                          You say:- Bahais suffer persecution, can be attacked by anybody, intensified persecution since the deposition of the Shah, and hiding in secrecy............ and you decided to use Wiki for your info.

                          There are 300, 000 Bahais living in Iran. 30,000 Bahais live in Tehran. The Bahai Faith claims to supersede Islam.
                          Bahai (and the early Bahais, the Babis) have existed in Persia/Iran since 1844, over one a half centuries...........
                          In the early days of Bahai (the Babis) the fighting against Islam was intense....
                          Bahais are considered to be the enemies of Islam by Muslims.

                          Your thread is titled:-
                          does-islam-preach-forcible-conversion

                          Question:- How is it that 300,000 Bahais are still living in Iran, with good lifestyles and nice houses, and cars, and passports to come to see their friends in other countries?

                          Job done...... !

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by eider View Post
                            No!
                            Of course Shia Islam represents Islam, but without hundreds of hadiths which are included in Sunni Islam.
                            First, there are only a few hadiths that are regarded as sahih ("reliable"), the Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Abu Dawud, al-Sughra, Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah -- with the first two afforded the highest status. That's six, not the "hundreds" that you imagine.

                            Second. the Shiites have hadiths of their own, giving precedence to those attributed to Ali and Fatima whereas the Sunni view that anything from any of the companions as equal. Further, the Shiites, while revering the hadiths, don't afford them quite as high status as do the Sunni.

                            That you think that the Shiites don't have or revere the hadiths is... bizarre.

                            Originally posted by eider View Post
                            Tabibito pointed out that Shia Islam constitutes about 10% of the whole and so my mention of it didn't count and I didn't get a prize!
                            [*Looks at time you posted*] Isn't that a bit early in the day to already be indulging? I mean the sun must have barely risen over there.

                            Originally posted by eider View Post
                            I don't have any strong opinion about how many creeds or denominations there might be........ I couldn't care less, but when a member mentions that Shia Islam is not any representative part of Islam because it only comprises about 10% of all (Tabibito) I asked what denomination he belongs to ............... and he didn't give me one.
                            Given how often you have your own unique take on what someone wrote, I'll take your interpretation of what he said with a grain of salt.

                            Now, if he pointed out that the Shiite view is hardly representative of what the overwhelming majority of Muslims hold, that would be 100% correct. At 10% many of their beliefs are decidedly minority ones and not representative of what the overwhelming majority of Muslims hold. That would simply be an indisputable fact based on the numbers.

                            I was raised a Lutheran, switched to being a Baptist as it seemed a better fit, but over the past few years I've begun to increasingly see myself as nondenominational. I believe that tab is also nondenominational although that doesn't automatically agree on every point. In any case, being nondenominational means by definition that one does not belong to any specific denomination and therefore cannot tell you to which one they belong to since they don't belong to any.

                            Even so, the split between the various denominations of Christians is nowhere as nearly sharp as the divide between the two branches of Islam. I could take communion with a Catholic, an Orthodox or any form of Protestant whereas you'd have to drag a Shiite kicking and screaming into a Sunni mosque and vice versa.

                            Originally posted by eider View Post
                            I say again.... I have heard/read that there are thousands of different creeds, churches and denominations in Christianity....
                            That would be an easily refuted myth.

                            Originally posted by eider View Post
                            I only know of several but many of these deny some or all of the others. Many who think of themselves as Christians would not be able to post on the 'Christian-only' sections here.
                            If there are "thousands" then you should be able to rattle of a couple dozen without putting much thought into it.


                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

                              If there are "thousands" then you should be able to rattle of a couple dozen without putting much thought into it.
                              There are thousands, if you consider the way they are counted valid.
                              Anglicans in Australia count as one denomination, in New Zealand another denomination, in England yet another denomination. That's three, and in whatever number of countries Anglicans have a presence, the number of Anglican denominations is equal to the count of countries. Repeat the process for Church of Rome, Methodist, or Uniting churches. Then the Baptists: count the number of conventions present in each country and call them one each. Then work through the other denominations in the same way, and add in single unaffiliated churches as one denomination each. It doesn't take long to rack up a couple of thousands.

                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by eider View Post

                                Well now......... You've backed yourself up in to a corner, so let's see you wriggle out of it.

                                You say:- Bahais suffer persecution, can be attacked by anybody, intensified persecution since the deposition of the Shah, and hiding in secrecy............ and you decided to use Wiki for your info.

                                There are 300, 000 Bahais living in Iran. 30,000 Bahais live in Tehran. The Bahai Faith claims to supersede Islam.
                                Bahai (and the early Bahais, the Babis) have existed in Persia/Iran since 1844, over one a half centuries...........
                                In the early days of Bahai (the Babis) the fighting against Islam was intense....
                                Bahais are considered to be the enemies of Islam by Muslims.

                                Your thread is titled:-
                                does-islam-preach-forcible-conversion

                                Question:- How is it that 300,000 Bahais are still living in Iran, with good lifestyles and nice houses, and cars, and passports to come to see their friends in other countries?

                                Job done...... !
                                That they aren't currently slaughtering Baha'i wholesale does not mean, as you claim, that the Baha'i are "confronting" Muslims in Iran.

                                What it means is that they are currently disobeying what the qur'an and hadiths expressly teaches.

                                As I have repeatedly said, for Christians to forcibly convert means they are disobeying what Jesus expressly taught. For Muslims to NOT forcibly convert means they are disobeying what Muhammad expressly taught.

                                And please provide the evidence that these Baha'i are living the good life in Iran as you claim. Since the Islamic revolution life for them has gotten much rougher.

                                Source: Iranian Authorities Arrest 12 Baha'i Members in Continuing Crackdown on Faith


                                Iran has stepped up its actions against Baha’i citizens, arresting 12 believers Tehran accuses of being “heretics” and having links to Israel in a continuing crackdown that has been condemned by Iranian and global rights groups.

                                Iranian state media on Sunday said the arrests took place in different cities in Mazandaran province, the same area where 14 members of Iran’s largest non-Muslim religious minority were arrested August 31.

                                Baha'is — who number about 300,000 in Iran and have an estimated 5 million followers worldwide — say they face systematic persecution in Iran, where their faith is not officially recognized in the constitution.

                                On several occasions, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has called the Baha'i faith a cult and in a religious fatwa issued in 2018 forbade contact, including business dealings, with followers of the religion.

                                Since the Islamic Republic of Iran was established in 1979, hundreds of Baha'is have been arrested and jailed for their beliefs. At least 200 have been executed or were arrested and never heard from again.

                                Members have rejected allegations of Iranian authorities and say members in Iran are committed to working for the good of the country.

                                In an interview with RFE/RL's Radio Farda, Simin Fahandej, the spokeswoman for the Worldwide Baha’i Community in Geneva, said the Iranian government is increasing pressure on Baha'is, including the issuance of stiff prison sentences against them, as part of a "new wave of persecution."

                                Shi’ite Islam is the state religion in Iran, but the government recognizes minority faiths, including Christianity, Judaism and Zoroastrianism, but not Bahaism.


                                Source

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                Not being recognized by the constitution makes them effectively "nonpersons" for which there is no penalty for harming -- kind of like being declared an outlaw back in Medieval times.

                                Here's how the situation in Iran is described by the Baha'i (Constructive Resilience: The Baha´’ı´ Response to Oppression):

                                By the end of the twentieth century, a large body of literature had emerged exploring the theory and practice of non-violent resistance to oppression. This literature was derived from the writings and actions of influential figures such as Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, the movements they led and inspired, and the deeper ethical and spiritual traditions from which they drew their inspiration. Against the backdrop of these dramatic twentieth-century struggles, the Baha´’ı´ community in Iran was pursuing a distinctively non-adversarial response to violent oppression that has received comparatively little attention—despite being ‘‘one of the few documented cases of a minority that has managed to resist peacefully’’ a sustained and systematic campaign of genocidal intent


                                Where they've been facing "a sustained and systematic campaign of genocidal intent."

                                Yeah, sounds just like they're living the good life "with good lifestyles and nice houses, and cars"

                                And this from the Baha'i International Community:

                                Archives website chronicles decades of Baha'i persecution in Iran

                                The website, Archives of Baha'i Persecution in Iran, serves as a repository for thousands of official documents, reports, testimonials, and audio-visual material, which reveal evidence of decades of relentless oppression and persecution of the Baha'is in Iran.

                                Widespread persecution

                                Baha’is, who are Iran’s largest non-Muslim religious minority, are routinely arrested, detained, and imprisoned. They are barred from holding government jobs, and their shops and other enterprises are routinely closed or discriminated against by officials at all levels. Young Baha’is are prevented from attending university, and those volunteer Baha’i educators who have sought to fill that gap have been arrested and imprisoned.

                                “Iranian Baha'is deeply love their homeland, despite all the suffering they have endured. Regardless of the restrictions imposed on them, they fulfil their spiritual and social responsibilities. Through participation in constructive discourse with neighbours, co-workers, friends and acquaintances, they nonetheless continue to contribute to the advancement of their nation and its people.” -- Statement of the Baha’i International Community


                                And from the Australian Baha'i Community:

                                As Australians, we enjoy the freedom to choose whether to practice a religion or not.

                                Baha’is in Iran face a very different reality. For over 40 years and to this day, the entire Baha’i community in Iran has been subject to continuous, multidimensional and state-sponsored persecution, affecting every one of its members across generations and within every phase of life and even in death.

                                Through various means, new and old, the authorities exclude Baha’is from the public sphere and prevent them from expressing their beliefs; impoverish them economically; undermine their intellectual advancement; erase traces of their history and culture; as well as spread disinformation about them and incite the public so as to create an environment of hatred against them. Their aim is to destroy the Baha’i community as a viable entity in Iran.

                                Over the past decade there has been a major upsurge in human rights violations. These include:
                                • Imprisonments: Since 2005 more than 800 Iranian Baha’is have been arrested or detained due to their faith.
                                • Leaders imprisoned for ten years: After a sham trial in 2008, seven Baha’i leaders were sentenced to lengthy jail terms. Australia’s Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Hon Julie Bishop MP, called for their release, as did her predecessor, the Hon Senator Bob Carr. All seven have now been released after completing their ten-year sentences.
                                • Educators jailed Baha’i educators have been sentenced to five year jail terms for involvement in a Baha’i educational program for their young people, who are barred from universities due to their religion.
                                • Systematic violence and harassment: Since 2005 there have been hundreds of incidents of torture, physical assault, disappearances, unexplained suspicious deaths, arson against homes and businesses, vandalism, cemetery desecration and the abuse of schoolchildren.
                                • Economic pressure: Economic pressure on Iran’s Baha’i community is acute. Since 2007, more than 780 incidents of economic persecution have been documented including shop closings, dismissals, the revocation of business licenses, property confiscations, and other efforts to block Baha’is from earning a livelihood. In late 2020, Iranian courts found that all properties belonging to Baha’is in the village of Ivel, who had farmed their land for generations, be confiscated.
                                • Incitement to hatred: A continuous campaign to incite hatred against Baha’is is carried out in Iran.


                                And from Bahá’í Community of Canada:

                                During the first decade of the Islamic Republic of Iran’s existence, more than 200 Bahá’ís — mostly leaders within the community— were killed or executed. Hundreds more were tortured or imprisoned. Formal Bahá’í institutions were banned. Tens of thousands of Bahá’ís lost jobs, access to education, and other rights — all solely because of their religious belief. In the second decade, the government’s anti-Bahá’í strategy shifted its focus to social, economic, and educational discrimination, evidently to mollify international critics. The new emphasis was designed to “block the progress and development” of the Iranian Bahá’í community, according to a secret 1991 memorandum signed by Iran’s Supreme Leader that ominously set policy for dealing with “the Bahá’í Question.”


                                With such freedom to practice their religion combined with economic and social success you claim they enjoy in Iran, it's a wonder why there isn't a mass exodus of those of that faith to the land of milk and honey that is Iran

                                But let's continue seeing just how great things are for them in Iran. From Amnesty International last summer:

                                The Iranian authorities’ persecution of the Baha’i religious minority has increased in intensity with a recent flurry of raids, arbitrary arrests, home demolitions and land grabs, Amnesty International said today.

                                Since 31 July 2022, Ministry of Intelligence agents have raided and confiscated dozens of Baha’i properties and arrested at least 30 members of the Baha’i community on account of their faith in various cities throughout Iran. The authorities have subjected many more to interrogations and/or forced them to wear electronic ankle bracelets. The Ministry of Intelligence announced on 1 August that those arrested were “core members of Baha’i espionage party” who “propagated Baha’i teachings” and “sought to infiltrate various levels of the educational sector across the country, especially kindergartens”.

                                “The despicable onslaught against the Baha’i religious minority is yet another manifestation of the Iranian authorities’ decades long persecution of this peaceful community. Baha’is in Iran cannot feel safe in their homes or while exercising their faith because they are at risk of persecution,” said Heba Morayef, Amnesty International’s Regional Director for the Middle East and North Africa.

                                “The authorities must immediately and unconditionally release all the Baha’i individuals who were recently detained as well as anyone in prison from before solely for the peaceful exercise of their right to freedom of religion. All convictions and sentences imposed on this basis must be immediately quashed.”

                                An additional 26 men and women in Shiraz, Fars province, are at imminent risk of arbitrary detention after a Revolutionary court convicted them of spurious national security charges stemming from their identity as Baha’i adherents in a grossly unfair mass trial and sentenced them in June 2022 to prison terms of between two and five years.

                                According to the Baha’i International Community (BIC), the recent arrests bring the total number of those currently imprisoned in Iran on account of their Baha’i faith to at least 68, including those who have been in prison since as early as 2013. According to the United Nations, over 1000 Baha’i individuals are currently at risk of imprisonment.


                                I strongly recommend the rest of the above article.


                                Anywho... Here are a few more articles for you to stubbornly ignore (I'll restrict it to just articles written in the 2020s):


                                I asked you earlier to provide us with a picture of a Baha'i temple in Iran. Let's see if you can find one. It should be a cinch given how they are living large in Iran and "confronting" Islam in that country.

                                Last edited by rogue06; 03-02-2023, 09:11 AM.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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