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Does Islam preach forcible conversion?

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  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    I've answered dozens of your questions.
    What is the precise nature of these "dozens of" "questions" that I have allegedly put to you?

    Looking back through this thread, by page two you were bragging about the number of volumes you had read on this topic and your Sunday visits to the university library, and then very quickly started making personally abusive remarks. You have also consistently failed to refer to a single title or author of those numerous books that you allege to have read during those visits.

    Nor have you ever
    answered the questions that I have directly put to you.

    I asked if you had heard of Crone, Hodson or Donner – and I never got a response

    You wrote on page 9:

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    This is often a line you use when you are out of your depth.


    That remark would appear to be suggesting that you consider yourself to be something of an authority on this subject. Given that affectation on your part I asked you for you expert” opinion on the isnād-cum-matn method when assessing Sunni traditions and for any new insights you could bring to the opinions of [and I chose three academics randomly] Wansbrough, Goldhizer and Burton.

    You declared that:

    Wansbrough was an Islamic apologist


    For which you have yet to tell us from where you obtained that information.

    You then made a vague remark that Burton had:

    provided invaluable information


    Thereby attempting to suggest that you knew something of Burton's work while neatly avoiding having to expand on precisely what "information" Burton had actually "provided".

    I suspect you had not heard of any of those names until I mentioned them; and hence you are now blustering and procrastinating about addressing those last two questions despite declaring that you can do so::

    Without any difficulty


    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Without any difficulty -- right after you finally address your previous claims
      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
      NOOOOOOOO! I can't defend my ignorant proclamations which made me look foolish and uninformed so I must seek to distract and deflect attention away from that by barraging you with my own questions and hope nobody notices
      FIFY


      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        FIFY
        So the usual childish response with no any honest response to actually address your claim concerning those "dozens of" apparent "questions" that you allege I have put to you.

        Why am I not surprised?
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          FIFY
          So much so that she peruses the entire thread for nits to pick.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            So much so that she peruses the entire thread for nits to pick.
            The hilarious part is she seems to think nobody sees through such a blatantly transparent and desperate ploy.





            And in case she has managed to "forget" her are what she is gutlessly refusing to explain, defend, or even acknowledge despite being asked about repeatedly

            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            Islam does not preach forcible conversion.
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            We do not know what Muhammed said. The Qur'an was written down centuries later.
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            Around 800 CE biographies of Muhammed came to written and these were carefully preserved. Before that? We have nothing.
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            The Qur'an is silent on Gabriel's revelations or any supernatural voice. The figure does appear in some verses but there is no mention of that figure being the messenger of supernatural revelations.
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            Nor were the hadiths ever intended to be considered in such a manner.


            Orf course I've also offered her the option of continuing to try to show that Jesus also commanded conversion by the sword that have been a regular laugh riot so far. Or, at the very least, please find another source who will do something like your last one and insist that the notion that Islam was spread at the point of the sword was nothing but some myth that the Crusaders came up with.

            Then again, after that showing I can almost understand her Brave Sir Robin act.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              So much so that she peruses the entire thread for nits to pick.
              I had to go through the thread to ensure that what rogue06 was alleging was correct. And it was not. Nowhere have I put "dozens of " various "questions" to him.

              Those I have directly put to him he has either ignored or has frantically engaged in diversionary tactics so that he does not have to address them.
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • To summarize this thread so far, Islam does preach Forcible Conversion, in both the Quran and as practiced by Muhammad himself. Many Muslims, especially in western countries like to bury this fact under various falsehoods and apologetics. Islam allows them to lie to infidels. Those Muslims who actually do believe Islam is peaceful are basically heretics. Hypatia, unable to refute actual history, keeps trying to deflect and change the subject.

                Comment


                • A post made earlier in the thread responsible for breaking many an irony meter.
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  You seem determined to continue off-topic.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    To summarize this thread so far, Islam does preach Forcible Conversion, in both the Quran and as practiced by Muhammad himself. Many Muslims, especially in western countries like to bury this fact under various falsehoods and apologetics. Islam allows them to lie to infidels. Those Muslims who actually do believe Islam is peaceful are basically heretics. Hypatia, unable to refute actual history, keeps trying to deflect and change the subject.
                    Pretty accurate so far.

                    Personally, I'd like to return to discuss forcible conversions and how that gets buried as I have a good deal more information.

                    Of course, it would be nice, if H_A put her big girl panties on and tried to defend some of her more easily refuted proclamations.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      A post made earlier in the thread responsible for breaking many an irony meter.

                      Do tell us how the opinions of various academics on this subject are "off topic"?

                      That until I mentioned their names you had clearly never heard of any of them is another matter.
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Pretty accurate so far.

                        Personally, I'd like to return to discuss forcible conversions and how that gets buried as I have a good deal more information.

                        Of course, it would be nice, if H_A put her big girl panties on and tried to defend some of her more easily refuted proclamations.
                        You could just ignore her and continue instead of letting her drag you off topic. Just sayin'

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          The gathering of the texts by Uthman and his subsequent destruction of them after his copy was produced is an especially interesting topic. Apparently there was a requirement that the there had to be at least two copies of something for it to get recorded into Uthman's "Medina codex" which is one reason that a significant proportion of it was lost.

                          That would include the part concerning A’isha's copy being partially consumed by a domestic animal so that a portion of a surah pertaining to stoning and breast feeding was lost -- which incidentally demonstrates the falseness of one of H_A's proclamations, namely



                          But at least one exception was made. According to perhaps the greatest Islamic scholar of his time, Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti, in his Al-Itqān fi ‘Ulum Al-Qur’an (The Perfect Guide to the Sciences of the Qur'an, and usually called the Itqan), even though the final verse of the 9th surah, At-Tawbah (the Repentance) was found only with Khuzayma Ibn Thabit, one of Muhammad's companions, it was decided to "record it because the apostle of God made the testimony of Khuzayma equal to the testimony of two men."

                          And we've had a few good threads regarding the belief that the earthly qu'ran is a perfect copy of a heavenly version (Umm al-Kitabhe) brought down by Gabriel (along with a similar belief that it has remained exactly the same in every detail as it was when Muhammad first related it some 1400 years ago, but that's an entirely different issue).
                          An additional note.

                          It would seem with the destruction of A'isha's copy of that portion the only other record of it was from Umar, who was among Muhammad's closest companions, his father-in-law and the second Caliph. But even so, that was not good enough for it to be included and in spite of his bona fides he apparently lacked the gravitas that Khuzayma Ibn Thabit did.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • One of the most common defenses used, that doesn't involve straight out gaslighting, against the fact that from the days of Muhammad the Islam was spread by the sword is that the people they conquered converted willingly.

                            "Willingly" is open to debate since refusal at the very least meant heavy discrimination and penalties at the very least (those who were not people "of the book" -- namely Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians did not get that option. For pagans it was convert or die).

                            What is amusing about all this is that many of the Islamic apologists who use this argument also will quiet openly brag and boast how quickly Islam spread through various victories in battle and conquest. They'll use that as proof that Islam is true (God wouldn't have permitted it otherwise). They seem blissfully unaware that spreading your religion via military conquest is pretty much a definition for forcible conversions.

                            Now, having said that, there have been instances where it spread without forcing people and that is in some portions of southeastern Asia. That they are now commonly often violently at odds with Hindus and Buddhists there doesn't change the fact that many people their embraced Islam.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • So it appears that H_A did a brave Sir Robin and skedaddled out of town dragging her hindquarters and leaving a "skidmark" on her way out.

                              She won't be addressing any of the following

                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              Islam does not preach forcible conversion.
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              We do not know what Muhammed said. The Qur'an was written down centuries later.
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              Around 800 CE biographies of Muhammed came to written and these were carefully preserved. Before that? We have nothing.
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              The Qur'an is silent on Gabriel's revelations or any supernatural voice. The figure does appear in some verses but there is no mention of that figure being the messenger of supernatural revelations.
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              Nor were the hadiths ever intended to be considered in such a manner.
                              Or maybe more attempts to show that Jesus also commanded conversion by the sword that have been a regular laugh riot so far.

                              At the very least please find another source who will do something like your last one and insist that the notion that Islam was spread at the point of the sword was nothing but some myth that the Crusaders came up with.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • Looks like H_A missed this thread when she got caught up today.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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