How much of Christianity came from Jesus, and how much came from other sources?

[eider]

There are claims that a synagogue did not need a building at all. I'm still trying to find something definitive.

...but you didn't seem to take note of what I wrote, that a synagogue (a meeting place!) could have been held in any tent. Nazareth residents lived in tents.

[eider]

Again, if you think she's the author then why are you demanding that the Gospel contain a reference to the transfiguration -- something she was not present for?

Oh please................. How do you get so mixed up?
You need to read posts more carefully, maybe?
I don't think Magdalene was the author.
I think Magdalene was the beloved disciple.

[eider]

You're the one who's admitted to ignoring large swathes of the New Testament because it doesn't suit you. It's rather rich that you would accuse me of ignoring verses without proffering a shred of evidence.

It's not that it doesn't 'suit' me.
I had no agenda when I started out in HJ research.

But I expect that you do ignore verses as well, which makes it rather rich that you don't just admit it.

[eider]

I already answered this. Unless the verse can be shown to be an error, no I don't reject any verses in the NT. There are some parts of the NT that when I read them I didn't want to accept what they said, especially about stopping sinning, but I decided long ago that what I want takes a back seat to what the bible tells me is true. A non Christian like you puts themself on the throne of their life. A Christian puts God on the throne and his wants are subservient to God's. That's what making Jesus "Lord" means.

I'll remember that you do not reject any verses in the NT.
I am not so much a 'non-Christian' but a Deist, and I don't put myself on any thrones....... Mother Nature is 'on the throne' of all life.

N.B. There are hundreds (and more) different creeds and churches in Christianity, so I ask you, are all those that don't fit with your accepted Creed Non-Christians?

Go back a few pages where you directly admitted you just pick and choose which verses to accept and reject. I don't feel like looking it up right now.

So I admitted that I sieve through the NT for material to bin in my HJ researches? I actually admitted that?
Let me help you.... of course I do!!! (Please take note of this post number)

For example:- Since Paul wrote nothing about Jesus (apart from last meal and last hours) then I won't find much abnouyt Jesus in my HJ research. You see?
And since the author/s of G-John were not present I am careful about what I value out of G-John. etc.

You got me......... I admit it!

John & Matthew in their Gospels. Luke interviewed eye-witnesses for his gospel and Acts. James and Jude were brother's of Jesus. Paul was witnesses to the events after the resurrection and to the resurrected Christ.

I do not believe that the author/s of G-John or Matthew were witnesses. You do believe, I don't.
Where did Luke claim to interview eye witnesses for G-Luke?
You mentioned James, now was he a brother or disciple of Jesus? I ask because Jesus had little time for brothers or his Mother, as you also have no doubt read.
I do not believe in the resurrection, so I don't take much notice of Paul's claims.

You completely skipped over what I said: What reason would they have for lying? And starting a whole new religion? One that ended up with them being hunted down, not only by the jews but the romans? It sure wasn't for power or glory. All they had to do after Jesus was killed was slink back to the temple and pretend nothing ever happened and they could have been living normal happy lives as jews. Instead they gave up everything they had, went underground and lived on the run. That gives their writings a lot more credibility

How did 'THE JEWS' hunt down the apostles? THE JEWS were getting on with their lives during the birth of Christianity. It was the Priesthood who challenged those people.

I don't know why the apostles started a whole new religion, but I do believe that Cephas was most upset with it all and maybe that is how G-Mark was written...his memoirs.

I gave you an article that showed that literacy was pretty high among Jews in the first century. And yes, Matthew was a tax collector. Also Jesus had hundreds of disciples, I am sure many of them could read and write. Not to mention that oral tradition was a big deal back then. People would memorize large portions of texts and scripture. Much more than someone today could. It is not inconceivable that they memorized Jesus teachings and sermons and told them to scribes later.

Literacy high among 'Jews'? Which Jews? The Levites? ...or the vast majority of the Jewish people, the peasant classes?
Yes, Matthew might have been the publican/disciple BUT I think they called him 'Levi' for 'the Levite'. But he needed to copy other depositions about Jesus, as did Luke. So I don't think that the Matthew the disciple wrote G-Matthew. And Luke was no witness as you have admitted.

And where from and how did those gospels manage to include the family lines of Jesus?

Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

Very well....... so that was where the word 'Christian' first appeared....... nothing to do with Jesus in his time.

[tabibito]

...but you didn't seem to take note of what I wrote, that a synagogue (a meeting place!) could have been held in any tent. Nazareth residents lived in tents.

Archaeology would tend to call into question the claim that Nazareth residents lived in tents. (except perhaps for duration of the feast of tabernacles, an eight day festival beginning 15/7 (Tishri). Regardless of the day of the week that the 15th falls, it is a sabbath. So too the last day of the festival, 22/7.)

Why would I accept your definition of a synagogue (meeting place) in preference to the definitions found in lexicons? There is ambiguity in the lexical entries to be sure, so there might be a requirement that a place to meet is required - however, if it wasn't required, mention of the fact would be unexpected. If it was required, mention of the fact would be expected.

Strange originally calculated the population of Nazareth at the time of Christ as "roughly 1,600 to 2,000 people" but, in a subsequent publication that followed more than a decade of additional research, revised this figure down to "a maximum of about 480."^[54] In 2009, Israeli archaeologist Yardenna Alexandre excavated archaeological remains in Nazareth that date to the time of Jesus in the early Roman period. Alexandre told reporters, "The discovery is of the utmost importance since it reveals for the very first time a house from the Jewish village of Nazareth.

So, a resident population of say, 400 people, if only 10% of them were men, would produce enough for a synagogue quorum four times over. And you don't think that a village with a torah adherent population would have had a synagogue?

[Esther]

Would you like to show me?

The whole book of Acts. The origins of Christianity for both Jews and Gentiles. A very easy and good read.

[One Bad Pig]

...but you didn't seem to take note of what I wrote, that a synagogue (a meeting place!) could have been held in any tent. Nazareth residents lived in tents.

False. They lived in houses:

• In 2009, a first-century dwelling was discovered⁶ in which were found pottery and chalk stone vessel shards which date from the late Hellenic through Early Roman periods (100 BC to 100 AD)⁷
• Another first-century courtyard house was excavated in Nazareth⁸, which still had windows and doors intact. In 2015 Dr. Ken Dark, the lead archaeologist, noted evidence of early Christian veneration at the site, suggesting that it may have been the childhood home of Jesus.⁹

While there once was a lack of first-century evidence in Nazareth, recent excavations have conclusively demonstrated that in Jesus’ day, Nazareth was a backwater village of around 50 houses about four acres in size and populated by devout Jews of modest means.¹⁰

[One Bad Pig]

It's not that it doesn't 'suit' me.
I had no agenda when I started out in HJ research.

So you were open to accepting the miracles recorded as actually happening?

But I expect that you do ignore verses as well, which makes it rather rich that you don't just admit it.

Your wholly unsupported accusation is duly noted.

[rogue06]

Oh please................. How do you get so mixed up?
You need to read posts more carefully, maybe?
I don't think Magdalene was the author.
I think Magdalene was the beloved disciple.

Perhaps you can explain this then

Scripture Verse: John 20:1-2

Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.”

© Copyright Original Source

Where Mary Magdalene speaks to the Beloved Disciple and Peter.

[tabibito]

Perhaps you can explain this then

Scripture Verse: John 20:1-2

Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.”

© Copyright Original Source

Where Mary Magdalene speaks to the Beloved Disciple and Peter.

It doesn't fit eider's narrative, so it's obviously a late interpolation.

[rogue06]

...but you didn't seem to take note of what I wrote, that a synagogue (a meeting place!) could have been held in any tent. Nazareth residents lived in tents.

Perhaps you can provide some verification for this given that it flies in the face of the archaeological evidence.

Houses in ancient Nazareth were made with a rough stone foundation and mud-bricks made on site. A minimum of wood was used in the roof structure: wood was expensive. The houses in Nazareth were probably single storey, simple and small.

Nazarethhouse.jpg
Excavations at the site of a decidedly nontent-like ancient house in Nazareth

Here is a write up about it House uncovered in Nazareth dating to the time of Jesus by CNN, and a video by Al Jazeera:

And then there's this

Source: Jesus' House? 1st-Century Structure May Be Where He Grew Up

Archaeologists working in Nazareth — Jesus' hometown — in modern-day Israel have identified a house dating to the first century that was regarded as the place where Jesus was brought up by Mary and Joseph.

89d75004-0485-4f7e-989f-407cfa2532a3.jpg
People in the Middle Ages believed Jesus grew up in this first-century house in Nazareth, according to research

The house is partly made of mortar-and-stone walls, and was cut into a rocky hillside. It was first uncovered in the 1880s, by nuns at the Sisters of Nazareth convent, but it wasn't until 2006 that archaeologists led by Ken Dark, a professor at the University of Reading in the United Kingdom, dated the house to the first century, and identified it as the place where people, who lived centuries after Jesus' time, believed Jesus was brought up.

Whether Jesus actually lived in the house in real life is unknown, but Dark says that it is possible. [See Images of the 'Jesus' House and Nazareth Artifacts]

[...]


Source

© Copyright Original Source

So how about some evidence that Nazareth was nothing but a tent city?

[Sparko]

I'll remember that you do not reject any verses in the NT.
I am not so much a 'non-Christian' but a Deist, and I don't put myself on any thrones....... Mother Nature is 'on the throne' of all life.

N.B. There are hundreds (and more) different creeds and churches in Christianity, so I ask you, are all those that don't fit with your accepted Creed Non-Christians?



So I admitted that I sieve through the NT for material to bin in my HJ researches? I actually admitted that?
Let me help you.... of course I do!!! (Please take note of this post number)

For example:- Since Paul wrote nothing about Jesus (apart from last meal and last hours) then I won't find much abnouyt Jesus in my HJ research. You see?
And since the author/s of G-John were not present I am careful about what I value out of G-John. etc.

You got me......... I admit it!

I am trying to have a serious discussion and you are just being flippant.

Yes you admitted that you just treat the bible as a salad bar, picking and choosing which verses to accept.

I do not believe that the author/s of G-John or Matthew were witnesses. You do believe, I don't.

Based on what?

Where did Luke claim to interview eye witnesses for G-Luke?

In the very first paragraph:

Luke 1:1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled^[a] among us, ² just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. ³ With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, ⁴ so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

You mentioned James, now was he a brother or disciple of Jesus? I ask because Jesus had little time for brothers or his Mother, as you also have no doubt read.

He was both a half-brother to Jesus and a disciple. As was Jude.

I do not believe in the resurrection, so I don't take much notice of Paul's claims.

Salad bar research again.

How did 'THE JEWS' hunt down the apostles? THE JEWS were getting on with their lives during the birth of Christianity. It was the Priesthood who challenged those people.

The Priesthood were JEWISH And they were the leaders/government of the Jewish people. And they had their own enforcers of which Paul was one until he converted. So yes, the Jews hunted down the apostles and other followers of Jesus. As did the Romans. It would have been much easier for them to just drop the whole thing and go back to being obedient Jews, but instead despite the threat to their lives they spread the gospel of Jesus. They had nothing to gain by lying and everything to lose.

Literacy high among 'Jews'? Which Jews? The Levites? ...or the vast majority of the Jewish people, the peasant classes?

Among many of the professions. Military, merchants, priests, and apparently carpenters, as the bible has Jesus reading from scrolls.
Read the article I gave you.

Yes, Matthew might have been the publican/disciple BUT I think they called him 'Levi' for 'the Levite'. But he needed to copy other depositions about Jesus, as did Luke. So I don't think that the Matthew the disciple wrote G-Matthew. And Luke was no witness as you have admitted.

Or they all took notes and used the combined notes to write their own accounts. There is no way to know for sure. But Matthew definitely would have known how to read and write (and do math/accounting). Luke was not a witness as I have said, but he interviewed them and researched his gospel.

And where from and how did those gospels manage to include the family lines of Jesus?

Jews kept genealogies. A simple reading of the OT would show you that.

Very well....... so that was where the word 'Christian' first appeared....... nothing to do with Jesus in his time.

Who ever claimed it did? During his life they were just the followers of Jesus. Also according to Acts in various places, it was also referred to as "The Way"

[rogue06]

You mentioned James, now was he a brother or disciple of Jesus? I ask because Jesus had little time for brothers or his Mother, as you also have no doubt read.

Both. But not initially. Likely he became the latter after the Resurrection since Paul notes that Jesus appeared before him.

Scripture Verse: I Corinthians 15:3-8

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

© Copyright Original Source

I can only imagine what the effect seeing your half-brother who was recently brutally executed would have, but apparently it led to his becoming one of the three leaders of the nascent Christian Church.

[eider]

Archaeology would tend to call into question the claim that Nazareth residents lived in tents.

Where did you get that from? Or did you make it up?

http://www.bible-archaeology.info/housing.htm


People in ancient Israel used two types of housing:

tents for nomadic or semi-nomadic herders

houses, either large or small, in villages or cities.

Tents were used by

nomadic people, who followed their flocks to pasture and water, and moved around according to the seasons

semi-nomadic people, who were based in a village but lived part of the year in upper or lower pasture areas.

TENT DWELLINGS
Nomadic tents were larger than most modern tents, having two separate sections, front and back.

The front section was used for work. It was the public area of the tent, open to visitors. The men of the family lived here, gathered here with family members or friends, and conducted business if necessary. The men ate their meals in this area. The front part of the tent would be left open in warm weather.

The second or rear part of the tent was private. A dividing curtain separated it from the front area. It was here that the women, children and babies lived and slept. Jael used the privacy of her tent to hammer a tent peg through the skull of her sleeping enemy - see Bible Heroines

Nomadic tents woven from goats' hair; the front flap and sides can be raised to allow the passage of fresh air
Nomadic tents woven from goats' hair; the front flap and sides
can be raised to allow the passage of fresh air

Tents were made from goats' hair or dark sheep's wool, woven in rectangular strips on large looms. Women wove the fabric for the tents, stitched them together, and kept them in good repair. In effect, they were the craftspeople who produced the housing.

They also set up the tents each time the clan/tribe moved to a new site. They selected a suitable site, then using wooden mallets and tent pegs they hoisted up and secured the unwieldy tents. When it was time to move on, they took down the tents, folded them and stowed to for the journey.

www.ancient-hebrew.org/3_bet.html
The Hebrew word (bet) means house or tent as well as family.

Copy_of_tent.jpg
Copy_2_of_Tents_nomadic.jpg


Can you think of any folks from the NT who made tents, for instance?

So, a resident population of say, 400 people, if only 10% of them were men, would produce enough for a synagogue quorum four times over. And you don't think that a village with a torah adherent population would have had a synagogue?

How many people would have lived upon Nazareth? 400, you suggest?

I thought we had already agreed that no synagogue building remains were found. I have never suggested that Galilean people did not gather.

[eider]

The whole book of Acts. The origins of Christianity for both Jews and Gentiles. A very easy and good read.

Earlier you wrote:-

The reason I asked re the book of Acts was that I remember reading somewhere that you had questioned or given an opinion about Christianity and gentiles and Acts would be a very good and accurate description of both.

But Acts doesn't help me much.
Jesus never mentioned Christianity and didn't try to recruit Gentiles, did he?
I don't actually belive in Christiankity, but do believe in Jesus the rebel against Temple corruption.