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How much of Christianity came from Jesus, and how much came from other sources?

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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post





    Estimates guesses regarding the literacy levels in the region vary between 3 and 20%. Anything over 5% and literacy is no longer restricted to the intelligentsia.
    The Jews have been regarded as being particularly literate, but of course that doesn't necessarily mean much when literacy rates were so low. And yet, Scripture itself attests that it was expected for the average person to at the lest be semi-literate. For instance, in Deuteronomy 6, it says that when Moses led Israel out of Egypt, they were told to write the laws (mezuzot) upon their door posts, use tefilin, and learn and teach the Torah to their children.

    Still, it appears that literacy rate in ancient Israel fluctuated greatly over time.

    For instance, David McLain Carr, professor of the Old Testament at the Union Theological Seminary in New York City, and regarded as a leading expert on the textual formation of the OT, says that literacy rates were very high right up until the Exile, when it declined sharply and only slowly rebuilt over the following centuries.

    After an examination of documents from the period, Michael O. Wise, professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Languages at Northwestern University, indicates that between the time of Pompey and Hadrian, up to 5% of adult Jews in Judea were able to read books, while up to 16% could sign their name. In his Language and Literary in Roman Judaea: A Study of the Bar Kokhba Documents, Wise described the situation during that period thusly:

    "A literate society filled with illiterates -- especially women: that was Roman Judea in a nutshell"


    Catherine Hezser, a professor of Jewish Studies at the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, has estimated that at least 90% of the Jews in Roman Palestine in the first centuries CE were semi-literate (only able to write their names and such) or totally illiterate. But that leaves a 10% literacy rate.

    OTOH, Meir Bar-Ilan, a professor at Bar-Ilan University's Department of Talmud and the Department of Jewish History, supports the idea that the literacy rate was low, but he makes a very interesting observation that if you exclude women the literacy rate among adult males in urban areas might have been as high as 20%.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by eider View Post

      In your mind it is.
      You're the one who's admitted to ignoring large swathes of the New Testament because it doesn't suit you. It's rather rich that you would accuse me of ignoring verses without proffering a shred of evidence.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        There are claims that a synagogue did not need a building at all. I'm still trying to find something definitive.
        IIRC, some hold that Acts 13:43 suggests that a synagogue refers to the assembly and not the building.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by eider View Post
          What about you? Do you reject any verses in the NT?
          I do!
          I already answered this. Unless the verse can be shown to be an error, no I don't reject any verses in the NT. There are some parts of the NT that when I read them I didn't want to accept what they said, especially about stopping sinning, but I decided long ago that what I want takes a back seat to what the bible tells me is true. A non Christian like you puts themself on the throne of their life. A Christian puts God on the throne and his wants are subservient to God's. That's what making Jesus "Lord" means.



          How about you?
          And NO, don't select people to read who can simply support what I have found.
          I don't have a pet HJ scholar to quote....... or can you find a post of mine that shows that I do?
          Go back a few pages where you directly admitted you just pick and choose which verses to accept and reject. I don't feel like looking it up right now.


          Now you can tell me, please name an eye witness with writings in the NT, apart from the author of G-Mark and Cephas?
          Let's have a look at youir name list.
          John & Matthew in their Gospels. Luke interviewed eye-witnesses for his gospel and Acts. James and Jude were brother's of Jesus. Paul was witnesses to the events after the resurrection and to the resurrected Christ.

          No...... YOU give the benefit of the doubt. Yes?
          I simply researched as much as I could, and discover what I could.
          You completely skipped over what I said: What reason would they have for lying? And starting a whole new religion? One that ended up with them being hunted down, not only by the jews but the romans? It sure wasn't for power or glory. All they had to do after Jesus was killed was slink back to the temple and pretend nothing ever happened and they could have been living normal happy lives as jews. Instead they gave up everything they had, went underground and lived on the run. That gives their writings a lot more credibility



          So you think that Galilean boatmen could read? Let's see your evidence for that.
          And you think that a taxc collector disciple was called Matthew? I think Levi was the publican disciple. Although:- If Matthew had been a Levite which is probable because such positions would not have been given to locals, then Levi might have been a nickname, as in Matthew the Levi!
          I gave you an article that showed that literacy was pretty high among Jews in the first century. And yes, Matthew was a tax collector. Also Jesus had hundreds of disciples, I am sure many of them could read and write. Not to mention that oral tradition was a big deal back then. People would memorize large portions of texts and scripture. Much more than someone today could. It is not inconceivable that they memorized Jesus teachings and sermons and told them to scribes later.


          I don't even think that Jesus or his friends knew the word 'Christ' or 'Christian'
          Those names surfaced several years after Jesus, or so I have read:-

          'Christian' is coined
          A group of followers settled in the ancient Greek city of Antioch some 10-15 years after the crucifixion of Jesus. It was here that the term 'Christian' was first coined. It wasn’t a name the followers of Jesus had given themselves but rather it was a term applied to them by the people of Antioch. Historians debate whether or not it was originally used as a derogatory term.

          Acts 11:26
          and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.





          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

            [...]




            I gave you an article that showed that literacy was pretty high among Jews in the first century. And yes, Matthew was a tax collector. Also Jesus had hundreds of disciples, I am sure many of them could read and write. Not to mention that oral tradition was a big deal back then. People would memorize large portions of texts and scripture. Much more than someone today could. It is not inconceivable that they memorized Jesus teachings and sermons and told them to scribes later.
            IIRC, it was James Burke who did that fascinating series Connections that aired in the early 80s (?) who also had a show discussing how people managed to memorize so much back in the past that it almost seems like some sort of trick to us today. Actually there were a variety of tricks and techniques employed.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              IIRC, some hold that Acts 13:43 suggests that a synagogue refers to the assembly and not the building.
              Context seems to indicate otherwise. Acts 13:14 has them entering (εισελθοντες εις - high probability that they entered a place) the synagogue, and Acts 13:42 (εξιοντων - almost no to no chance that a place was implied) has them leaving.

              Lexical entries (including LSJ) show either a meeting or a meeting place, but don't indicate whether or not the meeting had to be convened in a dedicated place. However, a synagogue (dedicated room) could be in a house, with rules stating that in a house with bedrooms on the upper level, the synagogue could not be on lower levels. It would be pretty difficult for archaeology to determine what was on an upper level, and nothing shows whether such rooms would conform to the patterns of a synagogue-proper anyway.
              Last edited by tabibito; 01-24-2023, 12:40 PM.
              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                I gave you an article that showed that literacy was pretty high among Jews in the first century. And yes, Matthew was a tax collector. Also Jesus had hundreds of disciples, I am sure many of them could read and write. Not to mention that oral tradition was a big deal back then. People would memorize large portions of texts and scripture. Much more than someone today could. It is not inconceivable that they memorized Jesus teachings and sermons and told them to scribes later.
                It's likely that Jesus preached the same sermons repeatedly, so those traveling with him would have had plenty of opportunities to commit his words to memory and compare "notes" with each other.

                This idea that Jesus' words could not possibly have been accurately recorded by a bunch of illiterate Galilean yokels is just another Stupid Skeptic TrickTM.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  IIRC, it was James Burke who did that fascinating series Connections that aired in the early 80s (?) who also had a show discussing how people managed to memorize so much back in the past that it almost seems like some sort of trick to us today. Actually there were a variety of tricks and techniques employed.
                  One trick is called a "Mind Palace", where you use a location you are familiar with, such as your house, and then "fill" the rooms with images to help you remember things. So, for example, if you're going to the store and need to remember to pick up some CAT5 cable, 3mm rubber washers, and shoe polish (don't ask me, it's your shopping list), you could picture your kitchen with five yowling cats (CAT5 cable), and on each of their tails are three rubber washers (3mm rubber washers), and each cat has a slick, black coat (shoe polish). So instead of writing down what you need, you just keep that picture in your mind, and it's almost impossible to forget. The crazy thing is, you'll remember it weeks and even years from now.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                    One trick is called a "Mind Palace", where you use a location you are familiar with, such as your house, and then "fill" the rooms with images to help you remember things. So, for example, if you're going to the store and need to remember to pick up some CAT5 cable, 3mm rubber washers, and shoe polish (don't ask me, it's your shopping list), you could picture your kitchen with five yowling cats (CAT5 cable), and on each of their tails are three rubber washers (3mm rubber washers), and each cat has a slick, black coat (shoe polish). So instead of writing down what you need, you just keep that picture in your mind, and it's almost impossible to forget. The crazy thing is, you'll remember it weeks and even years from now.
                    Yeah but why couldn't they just record Jesus on their iphones? Huh?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                      One trick is called a "Mind Palace", where you use a location you are familiar with, such as your house, and then "fill" the rooms with images to help you remember things. So, for example, if you're going to the store and need to remember to pick up some CAT5 cable, 3mm rubber washers, and shoe polish (don't ask me, it's your shopping list), you could picture your kitchen with five yowling cats (CAT5 cable), and on each of their tails are three rubber washers (3mm rubber washers), and each cat has a slick, black coat (shoe polish). So instead of writing down what you need, you just keep that picture in your mind, and it's almost impossible to forget. The crazy thing is, you'll remember it weeks and even years from now.
                      That was the one example I remember from the program.

                      There was too much commotion going on (and possibly alcohol being consumed at the time) and being at a friend's house I couldn't record it for later. It's one show I still keep an eye out for.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • In order to have a synagogue, a community needed a minyan, or a minimum of ten adult males. Although Nazareth was small, it most likely had at least that many.
                        minyan.jpg
                        Last edited by Faber; 01-24-2023, 01:52 PM.
                        When I Survey....

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                          Yeah but why couldn't they just record Jesus on their iphones? Huh?
                          The problem is that skeptics think that people living in the Ancient Near East were just as dumb as your average atheist, when in reality, those "ignorant fishermen" who traveled with Jesus likely had sharper minds than most people living today.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                            The problem is that skeptics think that people living in the Ancient Near East were just as dumb as your average atheist, when in reality, those "ignorant fishermen" who traveled with Jesus likely had sharper minds than most people living today.
                            I dunno. Odds are skeptics think that your average atheist is pretty smart.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              Context seems to indicate otherwise. Acts 13:14 has them entering (εισελθοντες εις - high probability that they entered a place) the synagogue, and Acts 13:42 (εξιοντων - almost no to no chance that a place NOT was implied) has them leaving.
                              Oops. Corrected mis-statment.
                              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                There is argument about whether early first century Nazareth would have had a synagogue, but the genuine HJ Scholar declares proven the claim that there wasn't.
                                I don't think there was a synagogue in Nazareth either. That's what I wrote.

                                I'm interested in your mention of 'genuine' HJ Scholars.... How do you decide which one is genuine and which one not genuine?

                                Comment

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