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How much of Christianity came from Jesus, and how much came from other sources?

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  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    The Jews managed it.
    For a few years anyway. After 70 AD the Romans were much less tolerant of them or the Christians.
    Last edited by Sparko; 02-16-2023, 10:23 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      We do not know a great deal about the Druids. Cicero apparently met one who was visiting Rome. Julius Caesar had contact with them in his campaigns and while his descriptions are valuable and detailed they also show apparent contradictions and possible distortions. His portrayals of them suggest they were capable of great learning but their dominance in Gallic society was malign primarily because of their brutal and superstitious religious rites
      One thing we do know is that the Romans showed no tolerance for them in Britain.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

        From your own academic source:

        The Romans tended towards syncretism, seeing the same gods under different names in different places of the Empire. This being so, they were generally tolerant and accommodating towards new deities and the religious experiences of other peoples who formed part of their wider Empire.[19] This general tolerance was not extended to religions that were hostile to the state nor any that claimed exclusive rights to religious beliefs and practice.
        The Wiki article refines the broad brush "accommodating ... new deities"
        The Roman Empire typically tolerated other religions insofar as they conformed to Roman notions of what proper religion meant and if their deities could be mapped onto Roman deities.


        In short Hachiman could be mapped onto Mars, as was Ares - no problem. A traditional god, with an alternative name.
        When it comes to a god of mercy however, no counterpart is found in the Roman pantheon (as far as I know) ... so worship of such a god would not be tolerated, regardless of whose religion it was.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

          For a few years anyway. After 70 AD the Romans were much less tolerant of them or the Christians.
          I am not entirely sure what period of time you define as "a few years".

          Do you recognise any of the following?

          Mithridatic Wars
          Pompey
          Aristobulus II
          Hyrcanus II


          From the reign of Antoninus Pius [138-161 CE] the situation of the Jews begun to change for the better. He revoked the ban on circumcision that had been introduced by his predecessor [Hadrian] and seems to have restored most of the previous Jewish privileges concerning with the legal status of the Jewish communities.

          However it was during the rule of the last of the Antonines in the late second century CE that the legal position for the Jews changed. Under both Marcus Aurelius and Commodus Jewish Roman citizens were permitted to be elected to the decurionate [municipal council] without having to perform the Roman cultic ceremonies. Furthermore, and again during the reign of Commodus, the apparent behaviour of a Christian [later Pope] Callistus in a synagogue led to the praefectus urbis having him scourged and sent to the mines, indicating that Rome would not tolerate the desecration of a synagogue.

          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            One thing we do know is that the Romans showed no tolerance for them in Britain.
            There were also political reasons for Rome's eradication of the Druids. They wielded considerable influence over local kings and, as the local intellectual elite, were capable of organising inter-tribal resistance to Rome within mainland Britain.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              When it comes to a god of mercy however, no counterpart is found in the Roman pantheon (as far as I know) ... so worship of such a god would not be tolerated, regardless of whose religion it was.
              Was there ever a deity solely concerned with mercy?
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                I am not entirely sure what period of time you define as "a few years".

                Do you recognise any of the following?

                Mithridatic Wars
                Pompey
                Aristobulus II
                Hyrcanus II


                Sparko writes

                For a few years anyway. After 70 AD the Romans were much less tolerant of them or the Christians.


                And the faux historian counters by bringing up a list of things and people that happened well before then.

                Mithridatic Wars: 86-63 B.C. -- roughly a century and a half before.

                Pompey: d.46 B.C. -- roughly half a century before.

                Aristobulus II: d.49 B.C. -- again, roughly half a century before.

                Hyrcanus II: d.30 B.C. -- although probably referring to events from the 60s B.C. so again nearly a century and a half before.

                You really do have an issue with conflating separate time periods, having things separate by decades or longer as being contemporaneous.

                Buffoonery.gif

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                  There were also political reasons for Rome's eradication of the Druids. They wielded considerable influence over local kings and, as the local intellectual elite, were capable of organising inter-tribal resistance to Rome within mainland Britain.
                  Same could be said of priests in many areas that the Romans conquered but they weren't massacred wholesale.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                    Was there ever a deity solely concerned with mercy?
                    Not exactly, but I was wrong about the Romans not having a god(dess) of mercy - or more accurately: mercy, clemency, compassion and pity. Roman: Clementia; Greek: Eleos
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post


                      Sparko writes

                      For a few years anyway. After 70 AD the Romans were much less tolerant of them or the Christians.


                      And the faux historian counters by bringing up a list of things and people that happened well before then.



                      Mithridatic Wars: 86-63 B.C. -- roughly a century and a half before.

                      Pompey: d.46 B.C. -- roughly half a century before.

                      Aristobulus II: d.49 B.C. -- again, roughly half a century before.

                      Hyrcanus II: d.30 B.C. -- although probably referring to events from the 60s B.C. so again nearly a century and a half before.
                      Sparko seems unaware of the period of time for which Rome was involved in the region prior to 70 CE.

                      And you conveniently ignore my comments on Antoninus Pius and the later Antonines.
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                        Not exactly, but I was wrong about the Romans not having a god(dess) of mercy
                        I did not think there was a deity that only expressed that sole attribute.

                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Same could be said of priests in many areas that the Romans conquered but they weren't massacred wholesale.
                          The excuse was that the Druids engaged in human sacrifice. Read Tacitus. His [later] father-in-law was involved in both the destruction of the Druids and the Boudican rebellion.
                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            The excuse was that the Druids engaged in human sacrifice. Read Tacitus. His [later] father-in-law was involved in both the destruction of the Druids and the Boudican rebellion.
                            Just Google that?

                            Nearly everything we know comes from less than friendly Greek and Roman sources, IIRC, there is some archaeological evidence that they did. And some of the same Roman writers also mention human sacrifice among Germanic tribes. But it was in Britain that the Druids were especially targeted.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              The Bible has errors in it. As to the topic in question, the source of the error is your flawed interpretation of what is written.
                              OK...... so please help me. Could you show me your interpretation of the following verse:-

                              Luke {4:29} And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

                                The issue here isn't with the text but your inability to read it
                                I can read......... If we all accepted rogue's analysis of the bible we would all be Christians! We pagans are all illiterate!
                                Let's face it, you must think that anybody not a Christian is crazy....how could anybody be so stupid as to not see it rogue's way?

                                As Christianity gathered pace certain places held in deep veneration developed quickly, and traces of the Nazareth of Jesus's time were soon lost. Thrusting your experts forward to buttress your visions of Nazareth cannot change a word of that verse, but 'the hill whereon their city was built' is fairly clear, this verse just shows how small Nazareth was.

                                If you believe that the lower class masses of Galilee all lived in brick and stone houses in safe locations then I cannot help you.




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