How much of Christianity came from Jesus, and how much came from other sources?

[Sparko]

Of course they used the LXX, given its availability. Paul likewise always uses it.

How would Jesus use the LXX unless he was a) Literate and b) knew Greek?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

This is another example of your scoffing mockery where you pretend that some said something they clearly did not, that you hand wave off as being "jocular."

Sparko is labouring under the misapprehension that the comment from Vermes somehow undermines my previous remarks. It does not. Sparko seem to think that the possibility that Jesus was a scholar and learned [i.e. in the Law and Judaism] can somehow be extrapolated to "prove" he was equally well educated on all matters pertaining to the wider Hellenistic world.

[Sparko]

Sparko is labouring under the misapprehension that the comment from Vermes somehow undermines my previous remarks. It does not. Sparko seem to think that the possibility that Jesus was a scholar and learned [i.e. in the Law and Judaism] can somehow be extrapolated to "prove" he was equally well educated on all matters pertaining to the wider Hellenistic world.

I am just amused at how much you will twist and turn to avoid admitting you are wrong about something. To the point of throwing your own source under the bus.

[One Bad Pig]

Oh come now. Are you seriously suggesting that a Galilean charismatic was familiar with Hellenism in all its forms? And if so, on what attested historical evidence?

You sound just like my 6-year old. "You're going to put me in time out for 100 hours?"

[tabibito]

Sparko is labouring under the misapprehension that the comment from Vermes somehow undermines my previous remarks. It does not. Sparko seem to think that the possibility that Jesus was a scholar and learned [i.e. in the Law and Judaism] can somehow be extrapolated to "prove" he was equally well educated on all matters pertaining to the wider Hellenistic world.

An interesting claim. To the best of my knowledge, Sparko has only ever claimed that Jesus was proficient in Koine Greek.

[Sparko]

An interesting claim. To the best of my knowledge, Sparko has only ever claimed that Jesus was proficient in Koine Greek.

She likes to invent claims nobody has made in an effort to claim she is right. Right now she is trying to expand our claims to claim that Jesus was some sort of professor of Hellenistic culture!

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

How would Jesus use the LXX unless he was a) Literate and b) knew Greek?

Where did I write that Jesus used the LXX? And you accuse me of inventing claims no one has made!

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

She likes to invent claims nobody has made in an effort to claim she is right. Right now she is trying to expand our claims to claim that Jesus was some sort of professor of Hellenistic culture!

So what precisely did you mean by these two previous posts? How and in what manner is Vermes refuting my earlier comments?

But she then posted a source claiming Jesus was a "scholar" and "learned" - and shot down her own arguments. I think we are done here.

So now you are dismissing and mocking your own source because you realize it destroyed your own argument? Talk about providing amusement! That's hilarious!!!

[Mountain Man]

Nagar...or nagarra. I'm not sure about the double r spelling.

I'll quote the words of a very wise lady from Alaska which she wrote to me years ago.
If you don't like this piece then I'm sorry, but this rings so many bells for me:-
Since Jesus had so many extraordinary abilities, people would have thought of him as a nagar (Eastern Aramaic) a magi.

Just a side-note since you used the word Nagarra.

Did you know that the word is associated with "crafting" in the Sorcerer sense?

A related word is Nachash = Serpent, - Hiss an incantation, - a Sorcerer.

Kharash and tekton are also related to nagar.

Serpent is Naga in India, Nagash in Babylonian, and Nachash in the Bible. All of them are associated with Sorcery.

Both the Indian Naga Serpents and the Hebrew Nachash Serpents are associated with magic. In fact one word for magic in the Bible is nachash – To (snake) hiss/whisper an incantation.

And Jesus was called a Magi, or Sorcerer.

Origen said Jesus was never described as a carpenter in the Gospels.

Magi was used for magician - so yes. And we do know that extraordinary healers with their herbs and potions were often associated with magic.

Look at the Chinese symbols. The symbol for a Shaman matches the Cross potent.

Concerning the point: "Origen said Jesus was never described as a carpenter in the Gospels," this is demonstrably false.

Scripture Verse: Mark 6

And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things? What is the wisdom given to him? How are such mighty works done by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: Matthew 13

And when Jesus had finished these parables, he went away from there, and coming to his hometown he taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"

© Copyright Original Source

I don't know if this is a mistake of Origen, or a mistake of your "very wise lady from Alaska".

[tabibito]

Concerning the point: "Origen said Jesus was never described as a carpenter in the Gospels," this is demonstrably false.

Scripture Verse: Mark 6

And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things? What is the wisdom given to him? How are such mighty works done by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: Matthew 13

And when Jesus had finished these parables, he went away from there, and coming to his hometown he taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"

© Copyright Original Source

I don't know if this is a mistake of Origen, or a mistake of your "very wise lady from Alaska".

Origen. Contra Celsus chapter 36: final sentence
in none of the Gospels current in the Churches is Jesus Himself ever described as being a carpenter.

Origen was probably wrong. It is also possible that none of the copies he had made that claim - checking for variants of the original manuscripts might take a while.

I was wrong - it took no time at all. John Oakes considers that Origen got carried away a bit. I tend to agree.

https://evidenceforchristianity.org/...s-explanation/
I will have to agree with the scholars who fault Origen on this one. He was a philospher/theologian, defending rational Christianity against pagan criticism–especially from the Greek critic Celsus. It seems pretty clear that Origen was making a pretty weak argument, based on one textual variant. He seems to be doing this more to win an argument with an opponent than as a fair response to the textual evidence. One thing we can be fairly sure of is that Origen was an extremely good scholar, so he was surely aware that there was a textual variant, even in the third century, in the Mark passage. That he was using this variant to defeat Celsus is “on” Origen, in my opinion.

[Cow Poke]

Origen. Contra Celsus chapter 36: final sentence
in none of the Gospels current in the Churches is Jesus Himself ever described as being a carpenter.

Origen was probably wrong. It is also possible that none of the copies he had made that claim - checking for variants of the original manuscripts might take a while.

Well, Jesus was not "describing Himself" as a carpenter. But others were obviously under the assumption He was, indeed, a carpenter, or, at the very least, the son of one.

[rogue06]

Sparko is labouring under the misapprehension that the comment from Vermes somehow undermines my previous remarks. It does not. Sparko seem to think that the possibility that Jesus was a scholar and learned [i.e. in the Law and Judaism] can somehow be extrapolated to "prove" he was equally well educated on all matters pertaining to the wider Hellenistic world.

And here again, you scoff and mock at what is effectively a straw man argument of your own design.

[Sparko]

Where did I write that Jesus used the LXX? And you accuse me of inventing claims no one has made!

I said that Jesus quoted the LXX in Matthew 90% of the time. Then you said:

Of course they used the LXX, given its availability. Paul likewise always uses it.

That sounds to me like you admitted that Jesus used the LXX.

Perhaps you should be clearer in your statements if that is not what you meant.

[rogue06]

Well, Jesus was not "describing Himself" as a carpenter. But others were obviously under the assumption He was, indeed, a carpenter, or, at the very least, the son of one.

It is very unlikely that he didn't received training as a carpenter and helped Joseph when he was younger. Such things were expected. Whether or not he ever pursued that vocation is lost to us.

[Cow Poke]

It is very unlikely that he didn't received training as a carpenter and helped Joseph when he was younger. Such things were expected. Whether or not he ever pursued that vocation is lost to us.

EGGzackly... While there's not a "thus sayeth the Lord" that Jesus was a carpenter, it's entirely logical that He was, at least as a boy.