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  • #46
    Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

    Catholics do not believe Mary to be a goddess and they would consider what they do as mere veneration.
    Of course, they are disagreeable to being called idolaters despite the fact they do put her on equal footing as Jesus as a co-mediatrix and co-redemptrix. The Immaculate Conception of Mary is not the same as the Virgin Birth of Jesus. You may be trying to smuggle the Gospel of James in as if it was accepted even in the RCC canon, not that such smuggling would be extraordinary behaviour from you. Protestant of course protest such nonsense.
    The point being that mother goddesses were hardly unknown in the ancient world. Hence the overlay of the Mother of the Christian God on to earlier traditions and beliefs.

    Isis was the image of fecundity, which in Egypt was linked most prominently with the water of the Nile. She was, therefore, embedded in Egyptian village religion and was popular, especially among women, as Isis lochia – ‘she who brought forth a new-born babe’...The cult of Isis emphasized mediation, the possible disposition of the divine to incline kindly towards humans. ...Above all, with her protective power and her nurturing force, Isis was a much loved domestic presence, worshipped in domestic shrines, where figures and painted panels were placed....The representation of Mary in Egypt benefited from the prevalence and familiarity of this mother-goddess with the powerful attributes of physical prowess and life-giving energy. The fifth-century inscriptions show just how the process of conversion worked: ritual forms used in Hellenistic times to address Isis in spaces previously her own were now used by Christians and for Mary. A later inscription invokes the Egyptian month, yet appeals to the blessing of "our Lady of all, the holy God-bearing Mary of Philae", the very formula used in temples dedicated to Isis: "to the Lady Isis of Philae". [See Miri Rubin, Mother of God: A History of the Virgin Mary, YUP, 2009]






    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      Given the number of scriptural references to false brothers and the need to distinguish and avoid them or put them out of the assembly, that claim may be a bit questionable.
      That has to do with fellowship, not identification as Christians per se.

      I would not fellowship with you because of your heterodox beliefs, but I'm not going to say you're not a Christian.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

        The point being that mother goddesses were hardly unknown in the ancient world. Hence the overlay of the Mother of the Christian God on to earlier traditions and beliefs.

        Isis was the image of fecundity, which in Egypt was linked most prominently with the water of the Nile. She was, therefore, embedded in Egyptian village religion and was popular, especially among women, as Isis lochia – ‘she who brought forth a new-born babe’...The cult of Isis emphasized mediation, the possible disposition of the divine to incline kindly towards humans. ...Above all, with her protective power and her nurturing force, Isis was a much loved domestic presence, worshipped in domestic shrines, where figures and painted panels were placed....The representation of Mary in Egypt benefited from the prevalence and familiarity of this mother-goddess with the powerful attributes of physical prowess and life-giving energy. The fifth-century inscriptions show just how the process of conversion worked: ritual forms used in Hellenistic times to address Isis in spaces previously her own were now used by Christians and for Mary. A later inscription invokes the Egyptian month, yet appeals to the blessing of "our Lady of all, the holy God-bearing Mary of Philae", the very formula used in temples dedicated to Isis: "to the Lady Isis of Philae". [See Miri Rubin, Mother of God: A History of the Virgin Mary, YUP, 2009]
        Looks like someone is straining mightily to show parallels here. "X of <place>" is hardly proof of a close match. Dumbing down Mary into some semblance of a mother goddess is, frankly, a biased view requiring that pagans were credulously stupid.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by eider View Post

          And would any members please comment upon the many pagan activities, festivals and beliefs that have somehow been adopted by some churches?[/B]
          All of the Christian holiday observances in one way or another have pagan (?)* origins in the dates observed and how they are observed in Christianity. There are other holidays commonly observed among Christians such as Halloween and various New Year celebrations.

          *. . . because of the vague use of what is pagan there are many gray areas on how different beliefs consider what is pagan.



          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Earlier. Mary was sufficiently highly respected by the mid-second century that Celsus includes her as an object of his attack.
            That's what I said. I can't remember the work off hand, but one of the ECFs wrote about John and Mary in her old age. I am referring to the later "queen of heaven", immaculate conception, sinlessness, assumption into heaven, and the like. Extra biblical inventions.

            And given that the impetus for such respect was thoroughly Jewish in origin, it's not unreasonable to think that it was there all along: during the united kingdom of Israel and subsequently in the kingdom of Judah, the mother of the king was his closest advisor, sitting at his right hand. As the mother of Jesus, Mary fills that role. She is called "more honorable than the cherubim" because the cherubim are throne guardians, and the king's closest advisor ranks above throne guardians.
            Yep. She was held in high regard for that reason and for being called by God. When we talk of Maryology, that's not what we mean.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              The point being that mother goddesses were hardly unknown in the ancient world. Hence the overlay of the Mother of the Christian God on to earlier traditions and beliefs.

              Isis was the image of fecundity, which in Egypt was linked most prominently with the water of the Nile. She was, therefore, embedded in Egyptian village religion and was popular, especially among women, as Isis lochia – ‘she who brought forth a new-born babe’...The cult of Isis emphasized mediation, the possible disposition of the divine to incline kindly towards humans. ...Above all, with her protective power and her nurturing force, Isis was a much loved domestic presence, worshipped in domestic shrines, where figures and painted panels were placed....The representation of Mary in Egypt benefited from the prevalence and familiarity of this mother-goddess with the powerful attributes of physical prowess and life-giving energy. The fifth-century inscriptions show just how the process of conversion worked: ritual forms used in Hellenistic times to address Isis in spaces previously her own were now used by Christians and for Mary. A later inscription invokes the Egyptian month, yet appeals to the blessing of "our Lady of all, the holy God-bearing Mary of Philae", the very formula used in temples dedicated to Isis: "to the Lady Isis of Philae". [See Miri Rubin, Mother of God: A History of the Virgin Mary, YUP, 2009]





              There was no overlay.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Looks like someone is straining mightily to show parallels here. "X of <place>" is hardly proof of a close match. Dumbing down Mary into some semblance of a mother goddess is, frankly, a biased view requiring that pagans were credulously stupid.
                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                There was no overlay.
                Then kindly explain Dr Rubin's last sentence in that extract:

                A later inscription invokes the Egyptian month, yet appeals to the blessing of "our Lady of all, the holy God-bearing Mary of Philae", the very formula used in temples dedicated to Isis: "to the Lady Isis of Philae"


                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  That has to do with fellowship, not identification as Christians per se.

                  I would not fellowship with you because of your heterodox beliefs, but I'm not going to say you're not a Christian.
                  We couldn't fellowship?
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post



                    Then kindly explain Dr Rubin's last sentence in that extract:

                    A later inscription invokes the Egyptian month, yet appeals to the blessing of "our Lady of all, the holy God-bearing Mary of Philae", the very formula used in temples dedicated to Isis: "to the Lady Isis of Philae"

                    Oh, you mean the late 3rd to 5th Century extra biblical cult that invented attributes of Mary that have no basis in scripture?
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    - Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      The point being that mother goddesses were hardly unknown in the ancient world. Hence the overlay of the Mother of the Christian God on to earlier traditions and beliefs.

                      Isis was the image of fecundity, which in Egypt was linked most prominently with the water of the Nile. She was, therefore, embedded in Egyptian village religion and was popular, especially among women, as Isis lochia – ‘she who brought forth a new-born babe’...The cult of Isis emphasized mediation, the possible disposition of the divine to incline kindly towards humans. ...Above all, with her protective power and her nurturing force, Isis was a much loved domestic presence, worshipped in domestic shrines, where figures and painted panels were placed....The representation of Mary in Egypt benefited from the prevalence and familiarity of this mother-goddess with the powerful attributes of physical prowess and life-giving energy. The fifth-century inscriptions show just how the process of conversion worked: ritual forms used in Hellenistic times to address Isis in spaces previously her own were now used by Christians and for Mary. A later inscription invokes the Egyptian month, yet appeals to the blessing of "our Lady of all, the holy God-bearing Mary of Philae", the very formula used in temples dedicated to Isis: "to the Lady Isis of Philae". [See Miri Rubin, Mother of God: A History of the Virgin Mary, YUP, 2009]

                      The point being that syncretism is a thing? Personally I disagree with Mariology in rather strong terms. If I were a Christian, I would be much harsher in my disagreement. Comparing Mary to Isis is rather tenuous as Mary's influence is predicated only on her being the Mother of [the Incarnation] and is essentially honourific influence peddling.
                      P1) If , then I win.

                      P2)

                      C) I win.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                        Oh, you mean the late 3rd to 5th Century extra biblical cult that invented attributes of Mary that have no basis in scripture?
                        Is that the same as the extra-biblical belief in a triune deity?
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          Is that the same as the extra-biblical belief in a triune deity?
                          No
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          - Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                            Is that the same as the extra-biblical belief in a triune deity?
                            Certainly you would be knowledgably enough to know there is a proof text that is generally cited for biblical support for the Trinity and the related translation issues of said text.
                            P1) If , then I win.

                            P2)

                            C) I win.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                              All of the Christian holiday observances in one way or another have pagan (?)* origins in the dates observed and how they are observed in Christianity. There are other holidays commonly observed among Christians such as Halloween and various New Year celebrations.

                              *. . . because of the vague use of what is pagan there are many gray areas on how different beliefs consider what is pagan.


                              See post #27 regarding the date of Christmas for a terminal rebuttal of this nonsense.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                Is that the same as the extra-biblical belief in a triune deity?
                                Hardly. The triune deity is present in scripture, though he is not explicitly identified by that term.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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