They are not Christians!

[tabibito]

That has to do with fellowship, not identification as Christians per se.

I would not fellowship with you because of your heterodox beliefs, but I'm not going to say you're not a Christian.

I work at becoming a saint*, so perhaps there might be some ground for limited fellowship?


* albeit 90% of the time with no real diligence and 99% of the time, less than wholeheartedly.

[tabibito]

See post #27 regarding the date of Christmas for a terminal rebuttal of this nonsense.

The nonsense persists - nonetheless, and despite adequate proofs in contradiction, it (and other nonsense) has been embraced by a substantial proportion of academic theologians. It would be hard to find any time in Church history when similar conditions did not hold sway.

[eider]

All saints day originated in Rome, with the precursor being in honour of martyrs and held on May 13, instituted by Boniface in the seventh century. Gregory III changed the date to Nov 1 in 8th century, with the celebration restricted to Italy, but extended to include all saints - martyrs or not. Gregory IV extended the celebration to include the entire church in the 9th century. Halloween seems to be a blended celebration of All Saints and Samhain.

So much of Christian doctrine came in to being hundreds of years after the time of Jesus. This is why I separate Christianity from Jesus, the Baptist and all those people in the gospels.

[eider]

Just for interest [and from The Stations of the Sun]

Christianity not only suppressed old Celtic celebrations, but replaced them with Christian festivals. If we look closely, it is not difficult to see that All Souls’ Day (November 2nd) is a continuation in a Christian form of the older Pagan practices of Samhain. This is a time when on the continent Catholic families will visit the family tomb, say prayers for the dead, light candles and even picnic at the graveside. Just as their Pagan ancestors did, they are communing with the dead.

As an additional point, surely no one really believes that all those "holy" wells in the UK originated with Christianity?

Surely...... all of our European histories are riddled through and through with ceremony and custom so old that we've forgotten the 'how' and 'why' of it. Much of it adopted by Christianity.
I'm guessing that you have watched Bond films...? That scene where Bond is chasing a villain through the streets, filled with people celebrating the dead.... I wonder if that is connected to All Souls/Halloween?

[eider]

She has much more ancient antecedents and it is not really surprising that within the early centuries of Christianity she was so popular in Egypt!

Of course. I don't think of Egypt as a birthplace of Christianity, but of course it is.
In all the spin that generated soon after the Jesus story, Christianity's beliefs seem to have left Jesus the person way behind......

[eider]

The earliest mentions of what we call "Maryology" came about in the 3rd Century. She was highly respected in a few earlier writings, but the main stuff was a later insertion.

And there is a new word that I have never heard of before..... Maryology.
Matthew and Luke wrote her up strongly only a few decades after Jesus, so why did it take that long to raise up her name? Any ideas?

[eider]

While it is true that over the centuries many Christians have adopted a number of things from pagan religions (much of what we do to celebrate Christmas in the U.S. and Britain comes from old German traditions brought over in the 18th and 19th cent.), but more and more often scholarship reveals that much of what was thought to be borrowed from pagans were in fact things that pagans borrowed from Judeo-Christian tradition.

For example, I've previously brought up how the notion that Christians picking December 25 for Christmas has long been thought to be Christians subverting a pagan celebration but now we now it was pretty much the exact opposite.

Who wrote that piece? A Christian, by any chance?

[eider]

Yes. A mother goddess figure was hardly unknown in Egypt;





Not overly dissimilar are they?

Pictures. Worth thousands of words.

[NorrinRadd]

That's an idiotic question. What do you think?

Not having read beyond the first page, I'll take a guess at his answer by means of rhetorical questions:

If you "believe" in the statements in the Apostles' Creed, but beat your wife, cheat your business partners, bully the weak, and pee on homeless people, are you a Christian?

[eider]

All of the Christian holiday observances in one way or another have pagan (?)* origins in the dates observed and how they are observed in Christianity. There are other holidays commonly observed among Christians such as Halloween and various New Year celebrations.

*. . . because of the vague use of what is pagan there are many gray areas on how different beliefs consider what is pagan.

Many people have seen the scene from a recent Bond movie where Bond is chasing a villain through the streets where folks have dressed up as skeletons and dance through the streets. Is that a Halloween celebration?

[tabibito]

Pictures. Worth thousands of words.

Indeed. It's such an commonplace concept that you can find similar depictions almost anywhere.

Mother and Baby.jpg

[NorrinRadd]

Surely...... all of our European histories are riddled through and through with ceremony and custom so old that we've forgotten the 'how' and 'why' of it. Much of it adopted by Christianity.
I'm guessing that you have watched Bond films...? That scene where Bond is chasing a villain through the streets, filled with people celebrating the dead.... I wonder if that is connected to All Souls/Halloween?

I think it was more Samedi than Samhain. New Orleans version of voodoo, probably mashed up with some Catholicism.

If you're referring to "Live and Let Die," the first Bond film with Roger Moore, the screen debut of Jane Seymour, and my first time seeing 007 at a theater (drive-in) rather than rerun on TV.

[NorrinRadd]

People pray to the saints. Scripture says they can hear them in heaven. Not my cup o tea, but it's at least not anti-biblical AFAICT.

I have trouble not viewing it as necromancy. That's purely a personal difficulty of mine.

But I do understand the concept: The departed are not dead, their spirits are alive and in a sense "closer" to God than we are (I think various Scriptures disagree with the latter), hence they don't pray "to" the departed saints, except to ask those saints to relay their prayers to God.

Deification. That is the line. Veneration does not confer godhood.

Unless I'm mixing something up, there is the slight issue that the Orthodox sometimes use the term "deification" or perhaps more commonly "theosis" in regard to all believers.

[tabibito]

I have trouble not viewing it as necromancy. That's purely a personal difficulty of mine.

But I do understand the concept: The departed are not dead, their spirits are alive and in a sense "closer" to God than we are (I think various Scriptures disagree with the latter), hence they don't pray "to" the departed saints, except to ask those saints to relay their prayers to God.



Unless I'm mixing something up, there is the slight issue that the Orthodox sometimes use the term "deification" or perhaps more commonly "theosis" in regard to all believers.

You have it right. Once theosis is "complete," the person is a saint.

[shunyadragon]

Many people have seen the scene from a recent Bond movie where Bond is chasing a villain through the streets where folks have dressed up as skeletons and dance through the streets. Is that a Halloween celebration?

Not Halloween. I do not know. What country did this take place?