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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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They are not Christians!
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostIncredibly so. Just like you.
Both of you tend to make these assertions without backing them up (kind of a thing with you ), or in H_A's case, occasionally trying to support it by posting someone else asserting their opinion without backing it up.
I noted previously how this nonsense has been largely flushed from academia as more evidence has come forth that has put this notion in severe doubt. Maybe you can offer up some papers (not internet articles or popular press books), where scholars are still even debating this.
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
You appear to consider that Christianity was formed in a cultural vacuum.
And of course not one single academic source is provided in support of this [as usual] sweeping pronouncement:
this nonsense has been largely flushed from academia as more evidence has come forth that has put this notion in severe doubt.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Your tells are showing.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostLook through your posts over the past week and...
Aside from that
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostJesus Mythicism isn't just the concept that He never existed. It also includes the idea that Christianity borrowed everything from pagan sources. The latter is what you promote.Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThe last few days you have posted several things pushing the Copycat Christianity myth with great abandon. Are you going to throw those posts under the bus now?"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostHe went to those places with his gospel.
We do not have the complete correspondence.
I Corinthians appears to be a reply to a [now lost] letter [or some other missive] that had been sent to Paul and Galatians is a warning to his proselytes against backsliding and false teachers along with a distinct animus towards the leaders in Jerusalem.
He is also somewhat emphatic in chapter one where he states, "In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!"
What prompted that?
James, Cephas, and John had no quarrel with Paul.P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Really? He had never been to Rome when he wrote the letter to the Romans,
Would Paul have known so many people in a place that he had not visited? Moreover, Paul is not in the habit of greeting addressees by name. Paul usually communicates only a general and collective greeting, so would he have greeted specific individuals and groups even if he knew so many?
Finally, some of those on the list are associated more closely with the eastern Church than with the western Church. Prisca and Aquila, who are greeted in Romans sixteen verse three - four[a] were in Ephesus [1 Corinthians chapter sixteen verse eight and nineteen] at the time of the writing of I Corinthians. Andronicus and Junia(s) who are greeted in Romans sixteen verse seventeen Paul describes as having been "in prison with me", most likely at Ephesus. Epaenetus who is greeted in Romans sixteen is called "the first convert in Asia" the capital of which was Ephesus.
Because Paul had not visited Rome, it was to his advantage to mention the names of those Roman believers who he knew from churches elsewhere. Moreover, Paul describes these persons in laudatory terms, which enhances their position in the community and reflects positively on Paul's status.... In this way Paul presents himself as one who was not unknown to the church at Rome.[see entry in Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary, vol 5]
Originally posted by tabibito View Postand IIRC there is one other letter written to a congregation that Paul had not founded.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAs expected. Incapable of providing scholarly support for her nonsense she resorts to deflection.
his nonsense has been largely flushed from academia as more evidence has come forth that has put this notion in severe doubt."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
Paul was received as an angel of God at his prior visit.
Originally posted by Diogenes View PostMost likely the Galatians heard of Paul from reports Syria and Cilicia. Those journeys were after a three year stay in Damascus after an unknown period of time in Arabia. There was time for Christianity to begin circulating prior to letter to the Galatians and even their initial conversion.
Originally posted by Diogenes View PostJames, Cephas, and John had no quarrel with Paul.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
You can stop digging. You have amply proven you cannot substantiate these two earlier comments.
Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
Jesus Mythicism isn't just the concept that He never existed. It also includes the idea that Christianity borrowed everything from pagan sources. The latter is what you promote.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
- 1 like
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
If you don't believe Rogue, maybe Richard Carrier will be convincing.
My own opinion of the flesh and blood man is also different from the Jesus figures with which we are presented in the four canonical gospels."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostHe may not have been to Rome personally but we cannot rule that one of his followers had established a community there.
Would Paul have known so many people in a place that he had not visited? Moreover, Paul is not in the habit of greeting addressees by name. Paul usually communicates only a general and collective greeting, so would he have greeted specific individuals and groups even if he knew so many?
Finally, some of those on the list are associated more closely with the eastern Church than with the western Church. Prisca and Aquila, who are greeted in Romans sixteen verse three - four[a] were in Ephesus [1 Corinthians chapter sixteen verse eight and nineteen] at the time of the writing of I Corinthians. Andronicus and Junia(s) who are greeted in Romans sixteen verse seventeen Paul describes as having been "in prison with me", most likely at Ephesus. Epaenetus who is greeted in Romans sixteen is called "the first convert in Asia" the capital of which was Ephesus.
Because Paul had not visited Rome, it was to his advantage to mention the names of those Roman believers who he knew from churches elsewhere. Moreover, Paul describes these persons in laudatory terms, which enhances their position in the community and reflects positively on Paul's status.... In this way Paul presents himself as one who was not unknown to the church at Rome.[see entry in Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary, vol 5]
Which one was that?
Paul makes it clear in Romans 15:20 that he avoids going to where others already had established a church
But coming to Rome wasn't exactly his choice[1] and in v.22 Paul elaborates
Making it clear that Rome is not a church he established.
This is verified in Acts as well where it is made clear he had not been there before
Tradition holds it was Peter who was responsible for establishing the church in Rome, and while there is no conclusive evidence confirming this, there is indeed still evidence. One piece would be the salutation found in I Peter 5:13. In it greetings are given to the Christian churches of Asia Minor from "she who is in Babylon." While a tiny hand full of scholars have speculated this might be a reference to his wife, it is nearly universally agreed that this is a reference to the church he is writing from. Since Babylon was widely being used as a synonym for Rome by this point, the church mentioned by all accounts represents Rome.
Even if you argue that Peter had nothing to do with the epistle, it still offers confirmation of Peter's association with the church very early on.
1. technically I guess one could say it was since he chose to appeal to Rome
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostPaul was not responsible for founding the church in Rome as you baselessly speculate.
Paul makes it clear in Romans 15:20 that he avoids going to where others already had established a church.
Nor can we be certain that Paul appealed to Rome - again this is Acts and can anyone seriously believe this?
Then he summoned two of the centurions and said, “Get ready to leave by nine o’clock tonight for Caesarea with two hundred soldiers, seventy horsemen, and two hundred spearmen. 24 Also provide mounts for Paul to ride and take him safely to Felix the governor[ [Acts 23]
All that for one man?
Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
Tradition holds it was Peter who was responsible for establishing the church in Rome, and while there is no conclusive evidence confirming this, there is indeed still evidence. One piece would be the salutation found in I Peter 5:13. In it greetings are given to the Christian churches of Asia Minor from "she who is in Babylon." While a tiny hand full of scholars have speculated this might be a reference to his wife, it is nearly universally agreed that this is a reference to the church he is writing from. Since Babylon was widely being used as a synonym for Rome by this point, the church mentioned by all accounts represents Rome.
Even if you argue that Peter had nothing to do with the epistle, it still offers confirmation of Peter's association with the church very early on.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostOne teensy weensy problem. The author of 1 Peter is not an Aramaic speaking Jewish fisherman.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Quite correct. He wasn't a fisherman, even if Simon/Cephas/Peter was the author.
Find the original Greek text and analyse it for use of language and its style."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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