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  • They are not Christians!

    A few years back I went to a soup'n'chat event at a Christian group's centre. I knew about the event because I used to clean the carpets in it's large halls once a month and I noticed a sign outside that invited all to come along......... so one day I went along.

    It was a really pleasant event because I sat at the table end where the priest's two grown children had attended the event as well, and we chatted until the very end. But before that, as I was being introduced to all, a rather serious looking woman interrogated me.
    What was I doing there? I had come along out of interest. How did I know about it? I had seen a sign outside. Did I go to many such events? Yes. Why? Because I am an HJ student and can learn more.
    And then things got exciting!
    She asked:- What other churches do you go to?
    I told about various tea groups and meetings.
    Which ones? ....she asked.
    Well, there's the Christian Spiritualists in Avenue R.....
    The woman exploded!
    'They are not Christians!. They are Satan's demons' ........ and the woman started to shout and rage about the congregation in Avenue Road. She quoted bible verses.

    I was silent....... sat very still......... said no more to her. But unfortunately, very unfortunately, it was late October and a lady further along the table tried to change the subject. She asked yet another lady if her children were looking forward to Halloween. Oh no!!
    Well, the serious woman became agitated as she cried out that Halloween was the worship of the devil, and the vocal barrage continued for several moments as I turned my attention to the table end where that delightful family group sat.

    On a T-Web thread I recently read about a Christian group that rants about homosexuality, and I think that one of its priests has burned books in public, and some members here have commented on this particular church, and that is how I thought to start this thread.

    I have read that there are thousands of different churches around the world. I can think of a few myself.
    So who do you think is a real Christian and who is not?

    And would any members please comment upon the many pagan activities, festivals and beliefs that have somehow been adopted by some churches?



  • #2
    Originally posted by eider View Post
    A few years back I went to a soup'n'chat event at a Christian group's centre. I knew about the event because I used to clean the carpets in it's large halls once a month and I noticed a sign outside that invited all to come along......... so one day I went along.

    It was a really pleasant event because I sat at the table end where the priest's two grown children had attended the event as well, and we chatted until the very end. But before that, as I was being introduced to all, a rather serious looking woman interrogated me.
    What was I doing there? I had come along out of interest. How did I know about it? I had seen a sign outside. Did I go to many such events? Yes. Why? Because I am an HJ student and can learn more.
    And then things got exciting!
    She asked:- What other churches do you go to?
    I told about various tea groups and meetings.
    Which ones? ....she asked.
    Well, there's the Christian Spiritualists in Avenue R.....
    The woman exploded!
    'They are not Christians!. They are Satan's demons' ........ and the woman started to shout and rage about the congregation in Avenue Road. She quoted bible verses.

    I was silent....... sat very still......... said no more to her. But unfortunately, very unfortunately, it was late October and a lady further along the table tried to change the subject. She asked yet another lady if her children were looking forward to Halloween. Oh no!!
    Well, the serious woman became agitated as she cried out that Halloween was the worship of the devil, and the vocal barrage continued for several moments as I turned my attention to the table end where that delightful family group sat.

    On a T-Web thread I recently read about a Christian group that rants about homosexuality, and I think that one of its priests has burned books in public, and some members here have commented on this particular church, and that is how I thought to start this thread.

    I have read that there are thousands of different churches around the world. I can think of a few myself.
    So who do you think is a real Christian and who is not?

    And would any members please comment upon the many pagan activities, festivals and beliefs that have somehow been adopted by some churches?

    That last sentence constitutes an entire thread on its own!
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • #3
      Your question calls for quite a broad ranging answer.

      Christian is a person who does what a Christian is expected to do.

      Can a Christian adopt concepts from science? Yes

      Can a Christian adopt or adapt concepts from other faiths? Yes. The Samurai code of conduct is one that
      can be used to demonstrate the essentials of Christianity. The person who defines what these thing really
      are is important though. For the Christian, that person must be God. Not one of these is missing from the
      requirements that a Christian is expected to meet - and a few others are added.


      Bushido_Symmetrical_Arch_med.jpg

      Should a Christian pursue holiness (largely defined as a proper development of the above)? It's expected,
      required even. Holiness is what makes a person's faith (belief) fruitful.

      Should a Christian seek to improve in knowledge. Certainly - adding knowledge to the above.

      Things that are NOT required of a Christian are
      a belief that everything in the Bible is scripture.
      a knowledge of all the ins and outs of the doctrine of the Trinity (knowledge of the basics is necessary,
      but what constitutes "basics" is subject to debate.)


      I don't know if the foregoing answers your question, or even addresses it.


      Have Pagan beliefs been adopted or adapted by the churches, and if so which?

      There has been some - not as much as people like to imagine though. It is said that the lights, bunting, and trees of Christmas have pagan origins.
      That concept can be accepted, but to what extent? Lights and bunting in one form or another are used in celebrations throughout the world, and trees make handy things to hang them from. The Hanukkah festival of the Jews, held around Christmas, also has bunting, lights, and gift giving.
      The only part of Easter that owes anything to the Pagan festival is the name. Most parts of the world keep some form of "the passοver" as a term for the tide.


      Last edited by tabibito; 01-13-2023, 05:31 AM.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        That last sentence constitutes an entire thread on its own!
        Well, yes...... good point.......
        I wanted to include agnostics and atheists on this thread as well because the main title wouldn't give these much to offer, I guess.
        I'm also interested to discover more about churches and creeds that believe only they will be saved.

        The variations can be huge. Some congregations see Halloween as an extension of All-Saints where Christians could celebrate the victories over the demons and such, others see Halloween as a celebration of demons and such. I notice that here kin the UK Halloween celebrations are reducing, and it's years now since parties of kids have visited to trick-or-treat us, that is getting to be unpopular.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by eider View Post

          Well, yes...... good point.......
          I wanted to include agnostics and atheists on this thread as well because the main title wouldn't give these much to offer, I guess.
          I'm also interested to discover more about churches and creeds that believe only they will be saved.

          The variations can be huge. Some congregations see Halloween as an extension of All-Saints where Christians could celebrate the victories over the demons and such, others see Halloween as a celebration of demons and such. I notice that here kin the UK Halloween celebrations are reducing, and it's years now since parties of kids have visited to trick-or-treat us, that is getting to be unpopular.
          Halloween - Hallowed evening - the night before all saints day (probably a development from all martyrs day). There doesn't seem to be any real connection with anything pagan.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #6
            orthodox (small o) Christianity holds to certain core beliefs (such as the trinity, virgin birth, resurrection) that have been accepted for over 2000 years. In order to call yourself Christian you must hold to these core beliefs. There are many secondary beliefs that a lot of denominations fight over that make us look bad, but don't effect someone being a "true christian" or not (such as eschatology)

            There have been creeds that delineate some of these core beliefs such as the Apostle's Creed:

            Apostle's Creed

            1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
            2. I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord.
            3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
            4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
            5. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again.
            6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
            7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
            8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
            9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
            10. the forgiveness of sins,
            11. the resurrection of the body,
            12. and life everlasting.
            Amen.

            Usually cults and pseudo-christians will deviate or reject one or more of these core beliefs, usually on the divinity of Jesus, or the Trinity. For example Jehovah Witnesses claim that there is no Trinity and that Jesus was the Archangel Michael before his incarnation. Mormons claim that God used to be the Adam on another God's planet and that one day all good mormons will get their own planet.

            Here on Tweb we have a statement of faith that includes the Apostle's creed and a few others, like the Trinity and salvation. In order to use the tag "Christian" on tweb you would need to hold to these also. But that covers a lot of the main denominations of Christianity: Catholic, Baptist, Orthodox, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc.

            https://theologyweb.com/campus/help#...missiontrinity

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by eider View Post
              So who do you think is a real Christian and who is not?
              That's a question for God to answer, not me.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                orthodox (small o) Christianity holds to certain core beliefs (such as the trinity, virgin birth, resurrection) that have been accepted for over 2000 years. In order to call yourself Christian you must hold to these core beliefs. There are many secondary beliefs that a lot of denominations fight over that make us look bad, but don't effect someone being a "true christian" or not (such as eschatology)

                There have been creeds that delineate some of these core beliefs such as the Apostle's Creed:

                Apostle's Creed

                1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
                2. I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord.
                3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
                4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
                5. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again.
                6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
                7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
                8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
                9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
                10. the forgiveness of sins,
                11. the resurrection of the body,
                12. and life everlasting.
                Amen.

                Usually cults and pseudo-christians will deviate or reject one or more of these core beliefs, usually on the divinity of Jesus, or the Trinity. For example Jehovah Witnesses claim that there is no Trinity and that Jesus was the Archangel Michael before his incarnation. Mormons claim that God used to be the Adam on another God's planet and that one day all good mormons will get their own planet.

                Here on Tweb we have a statement of faith that includes the Apostle's creed and a few others, like the Trinity and salvation. In order to use the tag "Christian" on tweb you would need to hold to these also. But that covers a lot of the main denominations of Christianity: Catholic, Baptist, Orthodox, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc.

                https://theologyweb.com/campus/help#...missiontrinity
                Christians hold to the creed as stated. Does holding to the creed make one a Christian?
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  Christians hold to the creed as stated. Does holding to the creed make one a Christian?
                  That's an idiotic question. What do you think?


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by eider View Post

                    Well, yes...... good point.......
                    I wanted to include agnostics and atheists on this thread as well because the main title wouldn't give these much to offer, I guess.
                    I'm also interested to discover more about churches and creeds that believe only they will be saved.

                    The variations can be huge. Some congregations see Halloween as an extension of All-Saints where Christians could celebrate the victories over the demons and such, others see Halloween as a celebration of demons and such. I notice that here kin the UK Halloween celebrations are reducing, and it's years now since parties of kids have visited to trick-or-treat us, that is getting to be unpopular.
                    If you really are interested in the subjects and as you live in Kent, UK, see if you can obtain the two following volumes by Ron Hutton from your local library.

                    The Stations of the Sun: A History of the Ritual Year Britain
                    The Pagan Religions of the British Isles: Their Nature and Legacy
                    .
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I would like to think of the definition of "What is a Christian" as being a person who has repented of sin, trusted in Jesus as his Lord and Savior. But then again, we as Christians, by my definition and understanding of the term, don't hold a monopoly on the English language. Thus we often need to make a clarification, such as "born again Christian" or a person who has trusted in Jesus as his own personal savior, the emphasis on "personal".

                      John MacArthur wrote a controversial book in 2008, The Gospel According to Jesus. It stressed the concept of "Lord" in "Lord Jesus Christ", thus being branded with the term "Lordship Salvation". I personally have no problem at all with that, as understanding "sin" to be that which is in violation of the Lord's will and authority, and "repentance" including getting back under the Lord's authority.

                      As for the Apostles' Creed, it begins with "I believe in God..." but doesn't go much farther than that. Even the demons believe and shudder (James 2:19)
                      When I Survey....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Your question calls for quite a broad ranging answer.

                        Christian is a person who does what a Christian is expected to do.

                        Can a Christian adopt concepts from science? Yes

                        Can a Christian adopt or adapt concepts from other faiths? Yes. The Samurai code of conduct is one that
                        can be used to demonstrate the essentials of Christianity. The person who defines what these thing really
                        are is important though. For the Christian, that person must be God. Not one of these is missing from the
                        requirements that a Christian is expected to meet - and a few others are added.


                        Bushido_Symmetrical_Arch_med.jpg

                        Should a Christian pursue holiness (largely defined as a proper development of the above)? It's expected,
                        required even. Holiness is what makes a person's faith (belief) fruitful.

                        Should a Christian seek to improve in knowledge. Certainly - adding knowledge to the above.

                        Things that are NOT required of a Christian are
                        a belief that everything in the Bible is scripture.
                        a knowledge of all the ins and outs of the doctrine of the Trinity (knowledge of the basics is necessary,
                        but what constitutes "basics" is subject to debate.)


                        I don't know if the foregoing answers your question, or even addresses it.


                        Have Pagan beliefs been adopted or adapted by the churches, and if so which?

                        There has been some - not as much as people like to imagine though. It is said that the lights, bunting, and trees of Christmas have pagan origins.
                        That concept can be accepted, but to what extent? Lights and bunting in one form or another are used in celebrations throughout the world, and trees make handy things to hang them from. The Hanukkah festival of the Jews, held around Christmas, also has bunting, lights, and gift giving.
                        The only part of Easter that owes anything to the Pagan festival is the name. Most parts of the world keep some form of "the passοver" as a term for the tide.

                        What with warnings about false teachers and those seeking to present another Gospel, the New Testament makes it clear that not all who call themselves Christian may not necessarily be so, just as the Old Testament cautioned about false prophets.

                        It just seems odd that some find it shocking

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          Your question calls for quite a broad ranging answer.

                          Christian is a person who does what a Christian is expected to do.

                          Can a Christian adopt concepts from science? Yes

                          Can a Christian adopt or adapt concepts from other faiths? Yes. The Samurai code of conduct is one that
                          can be used to demonstrate the essentials of Christianity. The person who defines what these thing really
                          are is important though. For the Christian, that person must be God. Not one of these is missing from the
                          requirements that a Christian is expected to meet - and a few others are added.


                          Bushido_Symmetrical_Arch_med.jpg

                          Should a Christian pursue holiness (largely defined as a proper development of the above)? It's expected,
                          required even. Holiness is what makes a person's faith (belief) fruitful.

                          Should a Christian seek to improve in knowledge. Certainly - adding knowledge to the above.

                          Things that are NOT required of a Christian are
                          a belief that everything in the Bible is scripture.
                          a knowledge of all the ins and outs of the doctrine of the Trinity (knowledge of the basics is necessary,
                          but what constitutes "basics" is subject to debate.)


                          I don't know if the foregoing answers your question, or even addresses it.


                          Have Pagan beliefs been adopted or adapted by the churches, and if so which?

                          There has been some - not as much as people like to imagine though. It is said that the lights, bunting, and trees of Christmas have pagan origins.
                          That concept can be accepted, but to what extent? Lights and bunting in one form or another are used in celebrations throughout the world, and trees make handy things to hang them from. The Hanukkah festival of the Jews, held around Christmas, also has bunting, lights, and gift giving.
                          The only part of Easter that owes anything to the Pagan festival is the name. Most parts of the world keep some form of "the passοver" as a term for the tide.

                          Thank you for that...... masses of info.
                          Let's see what other Christians think about that.

                          As a Pagan I want to read Christian's opinions about 'who is a Christian'.
                          Thank you again.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            Halloween - Hallowed evening - the night before all saints day (probably a development from all martyrs day). There doesn't seem to be any real connection with anything pagan.
                            Yes.... I mentioned 'All Saints' day. But some Christians think that Halloween is wicked/evil, as explained in the OP.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by eider View Post

                              As a Pagan I want to read Christian's opinions about 'who is a Christian'.
                              Pagan? You don't come across as neo-pagan ...

                              Druid maybe?
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment

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