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Paul and the Judaizers

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  • #16
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    Majority consensus is that Mark was written in the late 60s early 70s, with some views supporting mid 30s to mid 40s. Even the more commonly accepted opinions are well within range for a second generation author. My own opinion - sometime before 60CE, with the admission that I can't prove it.
    I'm curious to see if she attacks "majority consensus" here since she tries to rely on it so much.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      I'm curious to see if she attacks "majority consensus" here since she tries to rely on it so much.
      Everyone is guessing, but in the case of Luke, the late dates are guesses that Luke was deliberately misleading the reader - or to put it more bluntly, lying. I cannot see any reason to believe that he was lying, so I'll accept the ballpark dates for composition as during Paul's lifetime.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        There are no authentic letters from James or Peter or any other of the men who knew the Jew we call Jesus of Nazareth.
        False.
        My Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B0719RS8BK

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Rational Gaze View Post
          False.
          Keep in mind that she's on record as doubting whether Peter, Paul or any Apostle ever even existed.

          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          ...We do not even know if a man called Cephas/Peter actually existed.



          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          As to your allegation concerning key eye witnesses within the four canonical gospel narratives we do not know if any of Jesus’ alleged disciples and followers mentioned in those actually existed.
          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          No they do not. First of all, as noted in my reply to rogue06 in the OP to this thread we do not know if any of Jesus’ alleged disciples and followers mentioned in those gospels actually existed.

          The first was in an OP she started with the second in post #4


          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          Capernaum was not a city it was a small town/large village. Nor do we have any idea where this individual [assuming he existed] actually lived.

          In reference to Peter



          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          I accept that someone wrote those letters and he called himself Paul and that he established various sects around parts of the eastern Roman empire, albeit at some distance from Jerusalem.




          ​​​​​​​

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            Do kindly explain how a Jew in the first century CE could have remained observant while no longer conforming to and observing Jewish law?

            Those again are only Paul's idiosyncratic ideas and notions.

            Again these are Paul's ideas. The Jews in the first century CE had [and today still have] their own means of expiation and those do not include vicarious human atonement [basically human sacrifice].


            I recommend that you read Geza Vermes, Jesus in his Jewish Context, or indeed Hyam Maccoby's two works on Paul [the latter author is not very complimentary].
            Hyam Maccoby?
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
              Why was Paul so "against the Judaizers" given that Jesus lived and died as an observant Jew?
              I think you blew it by not knowing who the Judaizers were.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                Interesting article.

                Dabru Emet, which more than 170 Jewish scholars signed in 2000, reaffirmed
                that Jews and Christians worship the same God and asserted that Nazism
                was not a Christian phenomenon. The 2015 declaration on Christianity
                made by Orthodox rabbis avowed “that the emergence of Christianity in
                human history is neither an accident nor an error, but the willed divine outcome
                and gift to the nations.”


                Jewish scholars don't buy into the story that Nazism was a Christian phenomenon. Maybe this bit should be filed for use when some idiot (yet again) claims otherwise.

                Polemical exchanges have characterized the relationship between Judaism
                and Christianity since their beginnings, because adherents of both faiths
                have defined themselves in opposition to the other. Scholars have challenged
                the Jewish dogma that Christianity was a daughter religion born out
                of a normative Judaism by persuasively demonstrating that the two faiths
                simultaneously emerged from the crucible of political, cultural, and theological
                ferment occurring in the first centuries of the Common Era.


                A bit more clarification would have been beneficial. Careless reading might make it seem that the author believes Judaism (rather than normative rabbinical Judaism) and Christianity arose concurrently. (Conclusion after further consideration, the author has not expressed it at all clearly.)
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  Interesting article.

                  Dabru Emet, which more than 170 Jewish scholars signed in 2000, reaffirmed
                  that Jews and Christians worship the same God and asserted that Nazism
                  was not a Christian phenomenon. The 2015 declaration on Christianity
                  made by Orthodox rabbis avowed “that the emergence of Christianity in
                  human history is neither an accident nor an error, but the willed divine outcome
                  and gift to the nations.”


                  Jewish scholars don't buy into the story that Nazism was a Christian phenomenon. Maybe this bit should be filed for use when some idiot (yet again) claims otherwise.

                  Polemical exchanges have characterized the relationship between Judaism
                  and Christianity since their beginnings, because adherents of both faiths
                  have defined themselves in opposition to the other. Scholars have challenged
                  the Jewish dogma that Christianity was a daughter religion born out
                  of a normative Judaism by persuasively demonstrating that the two faiths
                  simultaneously emerged from the crucible of political, cultural, and theological
                  ferment occurring in the first centuries of the Common Era.


                  A bit more clarification would have been beneficial. Careless reading might make it seem that the author believes Judaism (rather than normative rabbinical Judaism) and Christianity arose concurrently. (Conclusion after further consideration, the author has not expressed it at all clearly.)
                  If H_A is recommending someone who is persuaded by challenges that Christianity is not a daughter religion of Judaism and the two faiths emerged simultaneously, that would explain a lot of H_A problems.
                  P1) If , then I win.

                  P2)

                  C) I win.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    The bottom line of which is:

                    Maccoby was a true follower of his namesakes, the Maccabees, defending the one God and attacking the incursions of Hellenistic religion on the purity of Judaism. Unfortunately, the picture he drew of Christianity as an invention of Paul that is pagan through and through is recognizable by few Christians. To be blunt, he misrepresented Christianity.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Keep in mind that she's on record as doubting whether Peter, Paul or any Apostle ever even existed.
                      Ah. That explains the historical illiteracy, then,
                      My Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B0719RS8BK

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Rational Gaze View Post
                        Ah. That explains the historical illiteracy, then,
                        But she Googles stuff.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                          If H_A is recommending someone who is persuaded by challenges that Christianity is not a daughter religion of Judaism and the two faiths emerged simultaneously, that would explain a lot of H_A problems.
                          I assume you have not actually read anything by Maccoby but are premising your remark on this one paper by Moore?
                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            Interesting article.

                            Dabru Emet, which more than 170 Jewish scholars signed in 2000, reaffirmed
                            that Jews and Christians worship the same God and asserted that Nazism
                            was not a Christian phenomenon. The 2015 declaration on Christianity
                            made by Orthodox rabbis avowed “that the emergence of Christianity in
                            human history is neither an accident nor an error, but the willed divine outcome
                            and gift to the nations.”


                            Jewish scholars don't buy into the story that Nazism was a Christian phenomenon. Maybe this bit should be filed for use when some idiot (yet again) claims otherwise.

                            Polemical exchanges have characterized the relationship between Judaism
                            and Christianity since their beginnings, because adherents of both faiths
                            have defined themselves in opposition to the other. Scholars have challenged
                            the Jewish dogma that Christianity was a daughter religion born out
                            of a normative Judaism by persuasively demonstrating that the two faiths
                            simultaneously emerged from the crucible of political, cultural, and theological
                            ferment occurring in the first centuries of the Common Era.


                            A bit more clarification would have been beneficial. Careless reading might make it seem that the author believes Judaism (rather than normative rabbinical Judaism) and Christianity arose concurrently. (Conclusion after further consideration, the author has not expressed it at all clearly.)
                            Correction. Some "Jewish scholars don't buy into the story that Nazism was a Christian phenomenon".
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              I assume you have not actually read anything by Maccoby but are premising your remark on this one paper by Moore?
                              The "Reception" part of Wikipedia cites others unimpressed by Maccoby.

                              Are the Jewish Quarterly Review and the Journal of Ecumenical Studies of ill-repute?
                              P1) If , then I win.

                              P2)

                              C) I win.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                Correction. Some "Jewish scholars don't buy into the story that Nazism was a Christian phenomenon".
                                A detail the like of which you do not bother to mention in a goodly number of your own posts.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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