Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Arguing against Agnosticism

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
    The necessary being is God.
    So says your theology.

    Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
    Atheism denies the necessary being is God
    An atheist denies believing in any God. Atheism has nothing to say about necessary beings.

    Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
    then if it affirms the existence of the necessary being, then it must affirm the necessary being is not God and therefore is a creature.
    An atheist who affirmed the existence of a necessary being might have issues with the logical consistency of their beliefs, but I don't happen to know any atheist who affirms that.

    Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
    Hence if atheism affirms the necessary being . . . .
    Atheism affirms nothing of the sort. Atheism is not just whatever any atheist happens to believe.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
      Two Arguments for God as the necessary being.

      Argument 1

      The necessary being is either God or a creature. <snip> . . .
      Your first argument contains an absurdity.

      The necessary being (uncaused existence) is either God or NOT God.

      If not God then there is no God.
      If God then God's identity is that of the necessary being (Uncaused Existence). By definition that is the identity of God. So either God is God or God is not God.

      That God is not God. That is an absurdity. (That is, uncaused existence is not uncaused existence.)

      That there is no God is an absurdity. (That is, that there is no uncaused existence is an absurdity.)
      Last edited by 37818; 04-14-2017, 07:57 PM.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Your first argument contains an absurdity.

        The necessary being (uncaused existence) is either God or NOT God.

        If not God then there is no God.
        If God then God's identity is that of the necessary being (Uncaused Existence). By definition that is the identity of God. So either God is God or God is not God.

        That God is not God. That is an absurdity. (That is, uncaused existence is not uncaused existence.)

        That there is no God is an absurdity. (That is, that there is no uncaused existence is an absurdity.)
        The last line seems to be a non sequitur. Defining God as a necessary being does not imply that a necessary being must be God.
        Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
          The last line seems to be a non sequitur. Defining God as a necessary being does not imply that a necessary being must be God.
          Unless you understand necessary being to be uncaused existence then it is not necessary being. Only uncaused existence is necessary being. Uncaused existence is the fundamental identity of God. God being omnipresent BTW.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            Unless you understand necessary being to be uncaused existence then it is not necessary being. Only uncaused existence is necessary being.
            Right.

            Uncaused existence is the fundamental identity of God. God being omnipresent BTW.
            Here you're losing me. God is an uncaused existence, but that doesn't mean that an uncaused existence must be God.
            Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
              Right.



              Here you're losing me. God is an uncaused existence, but that doesn't mean that an uncaused existence must be God.
              Yes. The base argument can be made that there is an uncaused existence and the uncaused existence does not need any kind of God.

              Now there is only one possibility for there to be a God. Either that uncaused existence is God or there is none.

              I am going to stop here before I go on further.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment

              Related Threads

              Collapse

              Topics Statistics Last Post
              Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
              1 response
              24 views
              0 likes
              Last Post whag
              by whag
               
              Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
              60 responses
              281 views
              0 likes
              Last Post tabibito  
              Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
              45 responses
              299 views
              1 like
              Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
              Started by shunyadragon, 02-15-2024, 11:52 AM
              74 responses
              319 views
              0 likes
              Last Post whag
              by whag
               
              Started by whag, 02-06-2024, 12:46 PM
              60 responses
              337 views
              0 likes
              Last Post whag
              by whag
               
              Working...
              X