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Arguing against Agnosticism

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  • Arguing against Agnosticism

    Below I have presented and argument against agnosticism. Several other arguments are also given within a quote copied in substance (with some minor changes) from my blog blog site. Readers are requested to engage only the first argument as posted below, then other arguments linked to my blog may also be discussed in turn.

    An argument against Agnosticism.

    Practical atheism means mans life is indifferent to the existence of god as the ultimate end of man's moral action.
    Agnosticism concludes that god may or may not exist and there is not enough evidence to know either way concerning god’s existence.
    Agnosticism is therefore indifferent to the existence of god.
    Agnosticism is therefore indifferent to God as the ultimate end of man's moral actions.
    Agnosticism is therefore practical atheism.
    But atheism is false as shown in the thread (See thread on problems wuith Atheism).
    But agnosticism is a form of atheism as practical atheism.
    Therefore agnosticism is false.


    Some arguments against agnosticism

    2)
    Agnosticism concludes that the existence of god cannot be known.
    But the human intellect is ordered to know the nature of bodies and therefore being.
    God is a being.
    Therefore man can know that god exists through analogy from the created order to the uncreated order through the knowledge of being.
    Therefore agnosticism contradicts the nature of mans ability to know natures and being.
    What contradicts man's knowledge is false.
    Therefore agnosticism is false.

    3)
    Agnosticism concludes that the existence of god may or may not be known.
    If the existence of god may be known, then man can know a being that is not a body, but is a spirit.
    A spirit is more unlike a body than like a body.
    As man knows natures through bodies, then man knows a spirit by analogy from a body.
    As god is a spirit, then god is known through analogy from a body.
    As analogy is commonly used by man as a valid form of knowledge, and God can be known by analogy, then agnosticism is false.


    4)
    Agnosticism concludes that it is not possible to know that god exists.
    Yet man knows of the existence of god as the first cause, mover, perfector, necessary being and orderer.
    Therefore man does know of the existence of god under the character of first cause, mover, perfector, necessary being and orderer.
    Therefore agnosticism is false.

    5)
    Agnosticism concludes that it is not possible to know the nature of god.
    Yet natural theology concludes that the nature of god is divine, whereby He is the subsistent being, which exists simply, containing all perfections either formally in the divine nature, or virtually, according to power.
    As the divine nature is known through reason and by analogy from creatures, then agnosticism is false.

    6)
    Agnosticism concludes that the nature of the supernatural cannot be known in God.
    Yet the existence of the supernatural is demonstrated from reason as follows.
    Every being is common to other beings in so far as it has actions in common to other beings
    Every being is distinct from other beings in so far as it has something proper to it alone and not to other beings.
    The supreme being has perfections that are both common to all other creatures, yet the supreme being is unlike all other beings which are not supreme.
    As the supreme being is unlike all other beings, the supreme being must have a perfection that is unlike all other beings.
    As all other beings are natural, then the supreme being has natural perfections in common with other creatures and perfections that are proper to it alone and thereby unlike creatures.
    A perfection in the supreme being that is unlike natural creatures is not natural, but supernatural.
    But agnosticism concludes that we cannot know that the supreme being, nor the supernatural order exists.
    Yet deductive reasoning demonstrates the supreme being, nor the supernatural order exists.
    Therefore agnosticism concerning supreme being, and the supernatural order is false.

    7)
    Agnosticism concludes that the nature of the supernatural cannot be known.
    Agnosticism then concludes that neither reason, nor faith has access to the supernatural in God, nor any evidence in creation for the supernatural in the supreme being (called God).
    Yet God is supernatural (as shown above) and has chosen to intervene in history through supernatural actions such as prophecy, healing and other miracles (as part of Christian revelation).
    As these miracles are true (such as Christ's resurrection), then the action of God in history is also true.
    Those miracles have been accompanied with a divine teaching that has informed man through public revelation concerning the nature of the supernatural life in God.
    This supernatural life in God is the life of the Trinity as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
    As God has told man of the nature of the supernatural life which is then known by men through faith, then agnosticism is false.
    JM

  • #2
    Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
    An argument against Agnosticism.

    Practical atheism means mans life is indifferent to the existence of god as the ultimate end of man's moral action.
    No, it does not.

    Rest ignored as being based on false premises.
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
    MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Roy View Post
      JM -Practical atheism means mans life is indifferent to the existence of god as the ultimate end of man's moral action.

      R- No, it does not.

      Rest ignored as being based on false premises.
      Argument 1

      Practical atheism concludes that man may live as though god does not exist.
      For practical atheism is based upon both atheism or false theism.
      Atheism says man man may live as though god does not exist.
      False theism such as deism, says God exists but has no direct influence on the human moral action.
      Practical atheism means human morality is based upon the notion of no true ultimate good which means the human act is -

      1) never essentially directed towards God as the ultimate good, for God is detached from the universe as known by deism.

      2) but may incidentally be directed towards God as the ultimate good. For although according to deism, God is detached from the universe, God may still be the true ultimate end of the human act, even though deism cannot conclude for certain either way.

      What is not essentially directed, but only incidentally directed towards God as the ultimate good is indifferent to God as the ultimate good of the human moral act.
      Hence practical atheism means mans life is indifferent to the existence of god as the ultimate end of man's moral action.

      Argument 2

      Alternatively, practical atheism concludes that God is not essential to human morality, although God is acknowledged to exist.
      If God is acknowledged to exist, but is thought to be not essential to the human moral act, God is then a good that may or may not be attained through moral action as understood by those who hold to practical atheism.
      What may or may not be attained is indifferent to being attained.
      Hence according to practical atheism, mans life is subjectively indifferent to the existence of god as the ultimate end of man's moral action.

      JM

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
        An argument against Agnosticism.
        Seriously?


        Seriously?

        Agnosticism is therefore indifferent to the existence of god.
        Your conclusion is wrong. Please get some more practice on logic. It's not working out for you. It's quite normal for an agnostic to be concerned about the existence of God while not being able to conclude whether God exists or not.
        Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
          Argument 1

          Practical atheism concludes that man may live as though god does not exist.
          No, it does not.

          Rest ignored as being based on false premises.
          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
          MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

          mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

          Comment


          • #6
            JM: Practical atheism concludes that man may live as though god does not exist.
            Roy: Rest ignored as being based on false premises.

            Roy,
            I don't understand your objection to JM's statement.
            I should think an atheist would hold that it would be best to live as if god does not exist.
            Would you elaborate, please?
            Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Roy View Post
              No, it does not.

              Rest ignored as being based on false premises.
              Practical atheism

              Practical atheism is the view that one should live their life with disregard towards a god. Practical atheism doesn't reject or accept claims about god. [1] [2] Practical atheism has been mistaken with apatheism and pragmatic atheism. Apatheism sees the god question as irrelevant while practical atheism does not. Since practical atheism doesn't address the god claim one can be both a theist and a practical atheist.
              I don't see any error by me.

              JM

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
                Seriously?


                Seriously?



                Your conclusion is wrong. Please get some more practice on logic. It's not working out for you. It's quite normal for an agnostic to be concerned about the existence of God while not being able to conclude whether God exists or not.
                No counter argument presented.

                JM

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
                  No counter argument presented.
                  Counter argument #1: It is normal for agnostics to be concerned about existence of God. Therefore you assertion that agnosticism is indifferent to the existence of God is false.

                  Counter argument #2: Agnosticism is the state of not knowing whether God exists or not. It is nonsensical to prove that agnosticism is false. To prove that agnosticism is false, you would actually have to prove that agnostics really know whether God exists or not!
                  Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
                    JM: Practical atheism concludes that man may live as though god does not exist.
                    Roy: Rest ignored as being based on false premises.

                    Roy,
                    I don't understand your objection to JM's statement.
                    I should think an atheist would hold that it would be best to live as if god does not exist.
                    Would you elaborate, please?
                    Happy to. JM is reifying again, and applying sentience to abstract ideas.

                    Atheists do generally live as though no gods exist. This is eminently possible. But it's not a conclusion of practical atheism, and is definitely not something concluded by practical atheism (not least because practical atheism is not sentient and so cannot reach conclusions), it is practical atheism.

                    Pizza consists of cheese and tomato sauce on flatbread.
                    Pizza does not conclude that cheese and tomato sauce can go on flatbread.
                    Pizza doesn't conclude anything.
                    The existence of pizza allows us to conclude (or shows us) that cheese and tomato sauce can be put on flatbread (and that it is a good thing to do it!).

                    JM's first premise could be validly restated as either
                    - Practical atheism is living as though god does not exist
                    or
                    - Practical atheism shows us that man may live as though god does not exist
                    depending on what he's trying to achieve, although I doubt either would rescue his 'argument'. Not least because the rest of it is equally hopelessly muddled.

                    P.S. You might think this is a bit pedantic, but JM is trying to produce logical proofs.
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
                    MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

                    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
                      Practical atheism

                      I don't see any error by me.
                      Doesn't surprise me.
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
                      MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

                      mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Roy View Post
                        P.S. You might think this is a bit pedantic, but JM is trying to produce logical proofs.
                        Thanks for the explanation.
                        I appreciate precise thinking.
                        Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
                          Counter argument #1: It is normal for agnostics to be concerned about existence of God. Therefore you assertion that agnosticism is indifferent to the existence of God is false.
                          It is also normal for agnostics to be concerned about existence of God. Therefore my assertion that agnosticism is indifferent to the existence of God is true.

                          Counter argument #2: Agnosticism is the state of not knowing whether God exists or not. It is nonsensical to prove that agnosticism is false. To prove that agnosticism is false, you would actually have to prove that agnostics really know whether God exists or not!
                          I only have to show one part of the agnostic position is in error. This was done in the OP. Hence agnosticism is false.

                          JM

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            Happy to. JM is reifying again, and applying sentience to abstract ideas.

                            Atheists do generally live as though no gods exist. This is eminently possible. But it's not a conclusion of practical atheism, and is definitely not something concluded by practical atheism (not least because practical atheism is not sentient and so cannot reach conclusions), it is practical atheism.

                            Pizza consists of cheese and tomato sauce on flatbread.
                            Pizza does not conclude that cheese and tomato sauce can go on flatbread.
                            Pizza doesn't conclude anything.
                            The existence of pizza allows us to conclude (or shows us) that cheese and tomato sauce can be put on flatbread (and that it is a good thing to do it!).

                            JM's first premise could be validly restated as either
                            - Practical atheism is living as though god does not exist
                            or
                            - Practical atheism shows us that man may live as though god does not exist
                            depending on what he's trying to achieve, although I doubt either would rescue his 'argument'. Not least because the rest of it is equally hopelessly muddled.

                            P.S. You might think this is a bit pedantic, but JM is trying to produce logical proofs.
                            So change the word conclude to means - Practical atheism means that man may live as though god does not exist.

                            The apparent problem no longer exists, but agnosticism and atheism are still both false.

                            Yes I do thin its a bit pedantic.

                            JM

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JohnMartin View Post
                              Atheism says man man may live as though god does not exist.
                              No, it doesn't. Conjoined with other premises, it may imply that, but atheism alone doesn't say it.

                              Atheism says only that there is insufficient reason to believe that any god exists. It is logically possible, however, for an unbeliever to decide, for reasons unrelated to God's actual existence, that he should live as though he were a believer, i.e, as if God did exist, and there would be no contradiction in his doing so. Obviously, such a life would not be entirely honest, but atheism per se neither is nor entails any ethical principle.

                              Comment

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