Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Counterfeits.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Counterfeits.

    Of all the main world religions the claims to be the Christian faith has more counterfeits than them all.

    This points to a genuine Christian faith.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

  • #2
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Of all the main world religions the claims to be the Christian faith has more counterfeits than them all.
    This points to a genuine Christian faith.
    This is circular reasoning.
    For a counterfeit to exist there has to be a genuine.
    Your definitions presuppose (a genuine exists) to prove a genuine exists.

    Why cannot they all be counterfeit (or false)?
    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
      This is circular reasoning.
      For a counterfeit to exist there has to be a genuine.
      Your definitions presuppose (a genuine exists) to prove a genuine exists.

      Why cannot they all be counterfeit (or false)?
      Yes. As a possibility the odds are they can all be false. But the question for you to answer then, why so many competing claims for Christianity?

      Interestingly, all of them make some kind of claims regarding the 66 books of what is called the Bible. (Some more books too.)
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Yes. As a possibility the odds are they can all be false. But the question for you to answer then, why so many competing claims for Christianity?
        Because historically the most powerful countries on earth have at least been nominally Christian?
        In countries where Christianity is very rare you have many, many flavors of whatever happens to be their dominate faith system.

        Is this not so?
        Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
          Because historically the most powerful countries on earth have at least been nominally Christian?
          In countries where Christianity is very rare you have many, many flavors of whatever happens to be their dominate faith system.

          Is this not so?
          That does not answer the question, why Christianity has more competing groups than all the others combined.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            That does not answer the question, why Christianity has more competing groups than all the others combined.
            It is strange; I see this as evidence against Christianity.

            If there was a God, he would want his message to mankind to be promoted correctly, and an all-powerful, all-knowing god would be able to do that. Why not the Christian God?
            My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
              It is strange; I see this as evidence against Christianity.

              If there was a God, he would want his message to mankind to be promoted correctly, and an all-powerful, all-knowing god would be able to do that. Why not the Christian God?
              Well, there is the uncaused Existence whom I identify to be the God of the Hebrews and so of Christianity.
              Have you not read, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, . . ?"
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #8
                It's because we stopped killing our heretics. Christianity: The original choose your own adventure faith!

                OFq5QWA.jpg
                "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                Save me, save me"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  That does not answer the question, why Christianity has more competing groups than all the others combined.
                  I did explain it.

                  The most powerful countries on earth are the countries most likely to export influence (culture, religion, etc).
                  When a new religion enters an area it has a tendency to mesh with the indigenous faiths producing variations.
                  Also, the more people who hold to a faith system the more variations will develop for it.
                  Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Don't confuse counterfeits and cults with denominations. While there are many denominations in Christianity, they all hold to the same core orthodox doctrines and differ on side issues. Worship on Saturday or Sunday? Wear dresses or pants to church? Calvinism or Arminianism?

                    then you have the groups that are outside of orthodoxy but want to claim they are the "true Chrstianity" - like Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, Branch Davidians, and various other cults. The reason you have so many of them is greed and power. They want to control people and what better way than to hijack a group's faith and tell them that they have it wrong, but you have the truth. People love a conspiracy story and many will buy into such stories about the hidden truth and end up in such cults. But why do they do it to Christians? Because they are the dominant religion in the west. It is easier to take what is already there and twist it, than to get people to believe something totally new (like Scientology) - plus it takes less imagination.

                    I am sure in muslim countries and hindu countries they have the same problems with Islam and Hinduism cults.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                      It is strange; I see this as evidence against Christianity.

                      If there was a God, he would want his message to mankind to be promoted correctly, and an all-powerful, all-knowing god would be able to do that. Why not the Christian God?
                      Interesting that you as an unbeliever know what God would do and what He would not do.
                      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Did anyone else take it personally when he used the word 'counterfeit'?
                        I did, just a little bit.
                        Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well, there are counterfeits.

                          Jesus warned so that we would not be of them saying, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

                          What it comes down to is doing the will of God the Father. And, yes the counterfeits claim to do and know the Father's will too.

                          So what is the difference?

                          Trusting in one's own efforts versus trusting in the finished work of Christ.

                          Note in the example Jesus our Lord gave they said, "Have we not" done this work or that work in His name. Trusting in their own works.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                            It is strange; I see this as evidence against Christianity.

                            If there was a God, he would want his message to mankind to be promoted correctly, and an all-powerful, all-knowing god would be able to do that. Why not the Christian God?
                            From a Catholic POV, that is exactly what He has done.

                            But as any of the many non-Catholic Christians - and they come in many kinds - will not be slow to point out, they do not find the Catholic POV convincing. Or not as convincing, in all of its parts, as those of us who are Catholics do. And even among those of us who are Catholics, there is a variety of "flavours" - some are more Evangelical, some are more like the Greek Orthodox, some are more traditionally-minded, some are more at ease with modern types of theology or devotion than others.

                            From the POV of a different kind of Christianity, that is, again, exactly what God has done. Only this time, the puzzle is that some people stay Catholic or Anglican, rather than becoming Orthodox or Calvinist or Lutheran or Baptist or whatever it may be. In some theologies, the unconvertibility of some people or groups mah be explained by the suggestion that they are reprobate - and there are several flavours of reprobation, even within Calvinism, with which that doctrine is perhaps most often associated.

                            The flaw is not in God. It is in man. All Christians (to speak of nobody else) are flawed, ignorant of God in various ways and degrees, all have blindspots, all have besetting sins, all are slow to learn, all are incompletely converted - and that is speaking only of Christians, who do at least have a common language for speaking of these things. God is lacking neither in Goodness, Wisdom, Power, Knowledge, Mercy, or Graciousness.

                            People are attracted - or put off - by different things. For some, the doctrine of eternal damnation is morally repellent, so that they cannot believe in a God Who permits such a thing. For others, the difficulty may be the 'absurdity' - as some see it - of believing that a particular man, Jesus of Nazareth, is God in Person. For others, the stumbling-block may their experiences of Christians, of having been Christian, of finding God to be absent during some great crisis...there as many difficulties as there are people. In the case of Catholicism, the difficulties in it are historical, moral, Biblical, doctrinal, logical, and people are put off by its teaching on things like abortion, contraception, homosexuality, economics, or social doctrine. A lot of people have little time for bodies that are hierarchical - and the CC is hierarchical. Some do not like international Churches - the CC is international. Some are bothered by its claims to be able to teach with infallible authority. Sometimes people have the same objections - but for different reasons. At least in the US, dislike of authority in religion, exercised by another frail human being, seems to be especially widespread. And that is assuming that it is admitted in the first place that authority in religion is even possible.

                            If Jesus Christ were present in the US today, or in any other country, He would again be done to death. Very likely by the kind of people whom one might think would be certain to recognise Him. He was found to be mortally offensive by some. because He and His Teaching were a mortal threat to what they held dear. That would presumably not change, if He preached today. And He does, through His Church. One either believes He is Present and Active in His Church, or one does not. What the Church has to do, is to represent Him, without our sinful fallen egotism getting in the way.

                            So why does God not make Christians, and His Church of which they are members, free of all flaws, and totally convincing witnesses to Him ? There are several possible part-answers to that. God seems to work gradually in those He makes His own. Instead of making St Paul flawless, He took a flawed Paul, just as he was, and gradually worked through him as he was, to do things far greater and better than the flawed, damaged, sinful St Paul could have done in his own strength. The things done were done for the salvation of those to whom St Paul was sent - God did not 'wait' for St Paul for to be sinless until He was ready to send him.

                            So why was St Paul not made flawless on the first day of his life as a Christian ? Perhapd that is not how God works, except when doing miracles. When God works non-miraculously, IOW in the natural world, He 'takes time' in working. And it seems that, as we are of flesh and blood, and are not pure spirits, God works in us gradually, to convert us gradually. And God is able to take our sins and flaws and deficiencies and weaknesses, and to draw good from the evil that they bring us into and cause us to do, so as to be more glorified by overcoming the evil in us than if it were less than it is. Weak Christians glorify God more than if they were strong, because His Power is shown more evidently in our weakness than in our strength, because the more we are aware of our wretchedness, the more we are driven to rely on Him.

                            God created 13.81 thousand million years' worth of evolution, before being born among us as "God with us". He lived over 30 years in anonymity, as a Jewish peasant, before starting His Ministry. The whole of His earthly Life was a preparation for the last week before His Death and Resurrection. Everything from the birth of the material universe for all those years onward was a preparation for those last three days, from Good Friday to the morning of the Resurrection. If God takes so much time (so to speak) over something so important, why should God not 'take time' in making the Good News of Christ known to all mankind ? It seems that God works on a vast scale, whether to create billions of organisms too small for us to see, billions of stars in the sky, or billions of grains of sand, pollen, wheat or dust. There are billions of human beings, and each one is ruled in every way by God's Providence.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              Of all the main world religions the claims to be the Christian faith has more counterfeits than them all.

                              This points to a genuine Christian faith.
                              As Gerbil noted, your argument assumes it conclusion.

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                              2 responses
                              29 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                              Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                              62 responses
                              296 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post tabibito  
                              Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                              45 responses
                              299 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                              Started by shunyadragon, 02-15-2024, 11:52 AM
                              74 responses
                              319 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post whag
                              by whag
                               
                              Started by whag, 02-06-2024, 12:46 PM
                              60 responses
                              337 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post whag
                              by whag
                               
                              Working...
                              X