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Moved from the SBC thread - Orthodoxy and evolution and stuff

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  • #16
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    No, 'Leaves room' id too vague. St. Augustine made specific statements he supported a Biblical young earth. His statement concerning science did not refer to Biblical beliefs in Creation.
    Let's go with what he said not what you imagine.


    Moreover, and very importantly, in "City of God" while Augustine does indeed say that "not 6,000 years have passed since the creation of man" he also quite clearly states that:

    I own that I do not know what ages passed before the human race was created, yet I have no doubt that no created thing is co-eternal with the Creator.


    So this definitely leaves room for an old earth but a young human race. And of course nobody is claiming that that the earth is eternal.


    He thought that humanity was young[1] but does not necessarily think that the Earth is young as well -- "I own that I do not know what ages passed before the human race was created."


    So how does that fit into your claim?




    1. keep in mind that we had no scientific understanding of what constituted being "human" back then. Definitions could be radically different, including defining mankind as when God breathed the breath of life into them.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Might I kindly suggest that you gentlemen take this "nobody's gonna win" argument elsewhere, and allow this thread to go back to SBC-ness?

      Thanks.
      sowwy

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Let's go with what he said not what you imagine.


        Moreover, and very importantly, in "City of God" while Augustine does indeed say that "not 6,000 years have passed since the creation of man" he also quite clearly states that:

        I own that I do not know what ages passed before the human race was created, yet I have no doubt that no created thing is co-eternal with the Creator.


        So this definitely leaves room for an old earth but a young human race. And of course nobody is claiming that that the earth is eternal.


        He thought that humanity was young[1] but does not necessarily think that the Earth is young as well -- "I own that I do not know what ages passed before the human race was created."


        So how does that fit into your claim?




        1. keep in mind that we had no scientific understanding of what constituted being "human" back then. Definitions could be radically different, including defining mankind as when God breathed the breath of life into them.
        None of these selective references justifies an argument that St. Augustine supported any sort of 'Old Earth' beyond thousands of years, because he admits he does not know the exact age. . Your 'arguing from ignorance' with subjective vague references and not considering ALL of St. Augustine's citations on the Biblical Creation narrative on the age of the earth and humanity. He never proposed an Old Earth argument. Yes, the issue here is not any argument for an eternal earth or physical existence.

        'Leaves room' is not an effective argument for your case.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-21-2022, 10:34 AM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

          Rogue has acknowledged my request to take this battle elsewhere, Frank, and, in fairness, I would have expected you to be allowed one reply.

          You have.

          Elsewhere, pretty please with ice cream, chocolate fudge, whipped cream and a cherry on top?
          Place the argument where ever rogue06 or you choose. A shell game of moving here or elsewhere does not change the argument when he is only arguing for ignorance as'' 'leaves room' for St Augustine believing in the possibility of an 'Old earth' beyond thousands of years. St. Augustine never proposed any such 'Old Earth' argument.
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-21-2022, 10:40 AM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

            None of these selective references justifies an argument that St. Augustine supported any sort of 'Old Earth' beyond thousands of years, because he admits he does not know the exact age. . Your 'arguing from ignorance' with subjective vague references and not considering ALL of St. Augustine's citations on the Biblical Creation narrative on the age of the earth and humanity. He never proposed an Old Earth argument. Yes, the issue here is not any argument for an eternal earth or physical existence.

            'Leaves room' is not an effective argument for your case.
            The "selective references" are the instances when he speaks directly to the topic of science and the Bible, and he makes it clear that the earth could have gone through a number of different ages before mankind appeared.

            You are determined to have Augustine say what you want -- need -- him to say, whereas I'm quite content to let his words speak for themselves.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              The "selective references" are the instances when he speaks directly to the topic of science and the Bible, and he makes it clear that the earth could have gone through a number of different ages before mankind appeared.

              You are determined to have Augustine say what you want -- need -- him to say, whereas I'm quite content to let his words speak for themselves.
              No, the reverse is true. You are trying and determined to have Augustine say what you want or need him to say. All Augustine basically said is 'he did not know the exact age of the earth (physical existemce?}. You are classically 'arguing from ignorance; with a vague 'leaves room.' I am quite content to let his words speak for them selves. Therefore 'he admitted he did not know the exact age. He did reject the necessity of the interpretation that a day of earth day was not in reality one day of Creation. He did believe the age of humanity was 5,000 years old was as the Bible literally described, which is not science. Other than the one quote mentioning science he made no attempt to invoke nor mention science in citations concerning the age of the earth nor humanity.

              None of the citations you provided invoked an 'Old Earth' belief.
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-21-2022, 11:49 AM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment

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