Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    Yet again scholarly debate is in evidence. Unlike your own emphatic assertions.

    This by Ralf Sharf deals with Woods' comments: "Regii Emeseni Iudaei: Bemerkungen zu einer spätantiken Truppe".

    His final comments on Woods' short article are as follows:

    Der Versuch von D. Woods, aus dem tendenziösen Bericht des Lucifer von Calaris über die Ereignisse in Alexandria 356 eine Iudaei- Truppe des spätrömischen Bewegungsheeres zu rekonstruieren und damit zu einer Identifikation der Regii Emeseni Iudaei mit der legio comitatensis der Regii in der Notitia dignitatum zu gelangen, muß hingegen als gescheitert betrachtet



    Oops I missed out the "c" Ralf Scharf!
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      Oops I missed out the "c" Ralf Scharf!
      Oliver Schmidt https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...QZEaHzhqObB3Dp
      Vor diesem Hintergrund ist die Genese der auxilia des 4. Jahrhunderts zu verstehen. Zwar
      liegen die Anfänge dieser Einheiten, der Heruli, Batavi, Cornuti, Bracchiati, Petulantes, Celtae,
      Mattiaci, Ascarii und Regii Emeseni Iudaei, die noch vor 284 entstanden sein müssevielfach im Dunklen,
      in einigen Fällen lassen sich jedoch gut begründete Hypothesen aufstellen.
      Die Heruli kann man mit großer Wahrscheinlichkeit auf einen um 267 / 268 aus Kriegsgefangenen
      und dediticii dieses Stammes gebildeten Verband zurückführen; die Batavi dagegen
      scheinen aus einem Ableger oder einer Vexillation der bekannten cohortes Batavorum
      hervorgegangen zu sein, während die regii Emeseni Iudaei möglicherweise aus einer Art
      »Selbsthilfekommando« der Stadt Emesa entstanden sind


      And it still doesn't do anything about your comment that the MEANING of the NAME was wrong.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        Oliver Schmidt https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...QZEaHzhqObB3Dp
        Vor diesem Hintergrund ist die Genese der auxilia des 4. Jahrhunderts zu verstehen. Zwar
        liegen die Anfänge dieser Einheiten, der Heruli, Batavi, Cornuti, Bracchiati, Petulantes, Celtae,
        Mattiaci, Ascarii und Regii Emeseni Iudaei, die noch vor 284 entstanden sein müssevielfach im Dunklen,
        in einigen Fällen lassen sich jedoch gut begründete Hypothesen aufstellen.
        Die Heruli kann man mit großer Wahrscheinlichkeit auf einen um 267 / 268 aus Kriegsgefangenen
        und dediticii dieses Stammes gebildeten Verband zurückführen; die Batavi dagegen
        scheinen aus einem Ableger oder einer Vexillation der bekannten cohortes Batavorum
        hervorgegangen zu sein, während die regii Emeseni Iudaei möglicherweise aus einer Art
        »Selbsthilfekommando« der Stadt Emesa entstanden sind


        And it still doesn't do anything about your comment that the MEANING of the NAME was wrong.


        Have you read the entire paper?

        In your extract Schmitt is citing Zuckermann [1993] who is referring to Hoffman [1969] who in turn agrees with Mommsen [1910]. Speidel's paper was published in 1996 and Scharf's in 1997.

        So all you have done is go full circle back to Mommsen. You have progressed no further in your attempt to prove that a Jewish military unit actually existed. As Speidel noted:

        Mommsen cast such a spell that later editors of the inscription embraced his mistake in their own readings. Indeed, scholars build inverted pyramids on Mommsen's reading, tracing the unit's history as far back as the mid-third century. Yet Rome never raised regular army units from Jews, let alone elite ones.


        It would appear that Schmitt et al are under that same spell.

        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post



          Have you read the entire paper?

          In your extract Schmitt is citing Zuckermann [1993] who is referring to Hoffman [1969] who in turn agrees with Mommsen [1910]. Speidel's paper was published in 1996 and Scharf's in 1997.

          So all you have done is go full circle back to Mommsen. You have progressed no further in your attempt to prove that a Jewish military unit actually existed. As Speidel noted:

          Mommsen cast such a spell that later editors of the inscription embraced his mistake in their own readings. Indeed, scholars build inverted pyramids on Mommsen's reading, tracing the unit's history as far back as the mid-third century. Yet Rome never raised regular army units from Jews, let alone elite ones.


          It would appear that Schmitt et al are under that same spell.
          The argument was originally not about the existence of the military unit. There is some scholarly disagreement about whether the evidence is conclusive - perfectly normal.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

            Yet again scholarly debate is in evidence. Unlike your own emphatic assertions.

            This by Ralf Sharf deals with Woods' comments: "Regii Emeseni Iudaei: Bemerkungen zu einer spätantiken Truppe".

            His final comments on Woods' short article are as follows:

            Der Versuch von D. Woods, aus dem tendenziösen Bericht des Lucifer von Calaris über die Ereignisse in Alexandria 356 eine Iudaei- Truppe des spätrömischen Bewegungsheeres zu rekonstruieren und damit zu einer Identifikation der Regii Emeseni Iudaei mit der legio comitatensis der Regii in der Notitia dignitatum zu gelangen, muß hingegen als gescheitert betrachtet



            A simple declaration minus evidence is nothing but opinion.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              Mere attempts at obfuscation.





              What was it he didn't know about Roman military units again? The names that were appropriate? (disproven - the name given was appropriate.)

              Nothing to see here except H_A's monumental error - arising from her unfounded sense of superiority - yet again.
              She has been on a run as of late, careening from one embarrassing screw up of her own making to another for a couple of months now

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                Oliver Schmidt https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...QZEaHzhqObB3Dp
                Vor diesem Hintergrund ist die Genese der auxilia des 4. Jahrhunderts zu verstehen. Zwar
                liegen die Anfänge dieser Einheiten, der Heruli, Batavi, Cornuti, Bracchiati, Petulantes, Celtae,
                Mattiaci, Ascarii und Regii Emeseni Iudaei, die noch vor 284 entstanden sein müssevielfach im Dunklen,
                in einigen Fällen lassen sich jedoch gut begründete Hypothesen aufstellen.
                Die Heruli kann man mit großer Wahrscheinlichkeit auf einen um 267 / 268 aus Kriegsgefangenen
                und dediticii dieses Stammes gebildeten Verband zurückführen; die Batavi dagegen
                scheinen aus einem Ableger oder einer Vexillation der bekannten cohortes Batavorum
                hervorgegangen zu sein, während die regii Emeseni Iudaei möglicherweise aus einer Art
                »Selbsthilfekommando« der Stadt Emesa entstanden sind


                And it still doesn't do anything about your comment that the MEANING of the NAME was wrong.
                It's an example of her incessant need to demonstrate that "I knows stuff" even if it is irrelevant.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post



                  Have you read the entire paper?

                  In your extract Schmitt is citing Zuckermann [1993] who is referring to Hoffman [1969] who in turn agrees with Mommsen [1910]. Speidel's paper was published in 1996 and Scharf's in 1997.

                  So all you have done is go full circle back to Mommsen. You have progressed no further in your attempt to prove that a Jewish military unit actually existed. As Speidel noted:

                  Mommsen cast such a spell that later editors of the inscription embraced his mistake in their own readings. Indeed, scholars build inverted pyramids on Mommsen's reading, tracing the unit's history as far back as the mid-third century. Yet Rome never raised regular army units from Jews, let alone elite ones.


                  It would appear that Schmitt et al are under that same spell.
                  First, in that extract tab provided none of what you claim is happening.

                  Moreover, that you have one scholar citing other earlier ones who share a similar view is hardly new, much less indictive that they all rely upon each other. Such an assessment sounds like an attempt to dismiss the later scholars without having to address their research and conclusions -- something I can understand you'd find mighty appealing.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    First, in that extract tab provided none of what you claim is happening.

                    Footnote.
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      A simple declaration minus evidence is nothing but opinion.
                      Read the paper for yourself.
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                        The argument was originally not about the existence of the military unit. There is some scholarly disagreement about whether the evidence is conclusive - perfectly normal.
                        The comment was very much about the existence of the military unit.

                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        We already knew of the later Regii Emeseni Iudaei (an all-Jewish unit of light infantry),


                        We know no such thing.

                        Other academics have also challenged Mommsen's interpretations of epigraphical sources..
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          Footnote.
                          So we have a number of scholars supporting Momsen, with one calling his findings into question. What makes one scholar's assessment more compelling than another's? or several others?
                          Certainly, we don't have any reason to believe you, given the number of mistakes that you make (which is not significant) and refuse to correct or even acknowledge (which is).
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            So we have a number of scholars supporting Momsen, with one calling his findings into question. What makes one scholar's assessment more compelling than another's? or several others?
                            Certainly, we don't have any reason to believe you, given the number of mistakes that you make (which is not significant) and refuse to correct or even acknowledge (which is).
                            Of course you "don't have any reason to believe" me

                            You would find some way to challenge/disbelieve me if I stated that [according to the Gregorian calendar] we are presently living in September 2022!


                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              Of course you "don't have any reason to believe" me
                              For that you only have yourself to credit or blame.

                              You would find some way to challenge/disbelieve me if I stated that [according to the Gregorian calendar] we are presently living in September 2022!
                              No - though I did check the calendar to make sure you were right.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                For that you only have yourself to credit or blame.
                                Why would you ever concede that a heathen might be right?

                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
                                39 responses
                                186 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                132 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                80 responses
                                428 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                305 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by rogue06, 12-26-2023, 11:05 AM
                                406 responses
                                2,517 views
                                2 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Working...
                                X