This topic started in the Civics thread where it doesn't belong, so I'm transferring copies of the relevant posts here. Apologies if I have omitted any.
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Derail: Two Natures of Christ
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Derail: Two Natures of Christ
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛Tags: None
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Hypatia_Alexandria
Yesterday, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by Sparko View Post
The writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit
Not one canonical gospel has the anonymous author alleging he is are writing an inspired text. Luke's gospel is in the form of an account [based on his investigations] to his "excellent" Theophilus.
Originally posted by Sparko View Post
Who is God. And Jesus is God
There is no verse in any of the canonical gospels where Jesus declares he is θεός/theos. Other [even later] NT writers and their theological beliefs are another matter.
Originally posted by Sparko View Post
, so basically Jesus did inspire the words in the bible.
According to your beliefs.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Sparko
Yesterday, 04:32 AM
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Not one canonical gospel has the anonymous author alleging he is are writing an inspired text. Luke's gospel is in the form of an account [based on his investigations] to his "excellent" Theophilus.
There is no verse in any of the canonical gospels where Jesus declares he is θεός/theos. Other [even later] NT writers and their theological beliefs are another matter.
According to your beliefs.
Well you are wrong on all counts but this isn't the thread to get into it. But what more would I expect from you?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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tabibito
Yesterday, 05:07 AM
Originally posted by Sparko View Post
Well you are wrong on all counts but this isn't the thread to get into it. But what more would I expect from you?
Here let you argue with you...
There are enough New Testament references showing that Jesus was God before his conception and after his resurrection, but I'm not aware of any New Testament reference that claims Jesus of Nazareth (birth to execution) was God.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Sparko
#187
Yesterday, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
There are enough New Testament references showing that Jesus was God before his conception and after his resurrection, but I'm not aware of any New Testament reference that claims Jesus of Nazareth (birth to execution) was God.
You think he stopped being God when he was alive? So God the Son didn't exist while Jesus was alive? John 1 says that Jesus was God in the flesh. And that is just one instance.
Also Jesus wasn't "Jesus" before his conception, he was just God the Son. When he took on flesh he became known as Jesus.
But again this isn't the thread.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Hypatia_Alexandria
#190
Yesterday, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by Sparko View Post
Well you are wrong on all counts
Really? Are you denying that the opening verses of the gospel of Luke do not exist? And where does Jesus ever state I am god in any of the canonical gospels?
#191
Yesterday, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by Sparko View Post
You think he stopped being God when he was alive? So God the Son didn't exist while Jesus was alive? John 1 says that Jesus was God in the flesh. And that is just one instance.
Also Jesus wasn't "Jesus" before his conception, he was just God the Son. When he took on flesh he became known as Jesus.
But again this isn't the thread.
You are repeating much later Christian theology.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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NorrinRadd
#192
Yesterday, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
There are enough New Testament references showing that Jesus was God before his conception and after his resurrection, but I'm not aware of any New Testament reference that claims Jesus of Nazareth (birth to execution) was God.
I tend to agree. John 1 says that He "was" God and "became" flesh -- not necessarily the same as "taking on" flesh.
But IMO He continued to be "I Am," whether or not He remained "God."
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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tabibito
#193
Yesterday, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
I tend to agree. John 1 says that He "was" God and "became" flesh -- not necessarily the same as "taking on" flesh.
{ETA} It is said that Jesus was claiming to be God when he said “I AM” {/ETA}
So did the man who had been blind from birth (John 9:9 in Koine Greek texts), and Paul come to that - it seems reasonable to assume that neither was claiming to be God. Add in Philippians 2:6-8.
But IMO He continued to be "I Am," whether or not He remained "God."
Hebrew lacks the substantive "to be" so "I am a student" in Hebrew is "I student." In the LXX, the Hebrew "I" (ani/aniki) is consistently translated to "ego eimi," not merely "eimi" (am). LXX records that God said to Moses "ego eimi ho oen, tell them (Israelites and Pharaoh) that ho oen has sent you." The Koine Greek "name" for God is not "ego eimi" but "ho oen" ("the living one," or even "the entity").
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Hypatia_Alexandria
#194
Yesterday, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
I tend to agree. John 1 says that He "was" God and "became" flesh -- not necessarily the same as "taking on" flesh.
But IMO He continued to be "I Am," whether or not He remained "God."
I recommend you read up on some Neoplatonism as well as the complexities surrounding the Greek term "logos".
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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rogue06
#197
Yesterday, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
The evidence for a late addition of the forgiven adulteress, the most compelling being that it doesn't always appear in the same place, seems sound enough.
I don't know of anyone who does not agree that the Pericope Adulterae is a later addition to the text. A tradition thought too important to lose and not incorporate1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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tabibito
#198
Yesterday, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
I don't know of anyone who does not agree that the Pericope Adulterae is a later addition to the text. A tradition thought too important to lose and not incorporate.
Agreed. Not original to the text doesn't mean inauthentic, and it is a very important pericope.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Mountain Man
#202
Yesterday, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
There are enough New Testament references showing that Jesus was God before his conception and after his resurrection, but I'm not aware of any New Testament reference that claims Jesus of Nazareth (birth to execution) was God.
Jesus made a number of statements that were clearly understood by his listeners to be claims of divinity. See John 10 for one example.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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tabibito
Yesterday, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
Jesus made a number of statements that were clearly understood by his listeners to be claims of divinity. See John 10 for one example.
Clearly not the case. Even his disciples thought of him as a prophet (viz Luke 24:19)
Ah yes. John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
How does that work with Jesus declaring that the claim to be a son of God is not a claim to be God? (the people who received the scripture were termed gods: John 10:35) . Anyone who accepted Christ was given authority to become a son of God (John 1:12), Adam was termed a son of God (Luke 3:38), and most compellingly, Jesus asking the Father to make the disciples one (John 17:11) even as Jesus and the Father are one (not a matter of ontology) and soon thereafter that the disciples be made one with himself and the Father just as he and the Father were one (John 17: 21); likewise, not a matter of ontology.
Then there is Hebrews 2:9 - "It was necessary that he be made for a time lesser than the angels."
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Mountain Man#205
Yesterday, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Clearly not the case. Even his disciples thought of him as a prophet (viz Luke 24:19)
Ah yes. John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
How does that work with Jesus declaring that the claim to be a son of God is not a claim to be God? (the people who received the scripture were termed gods: John 10:35) . Anyone who accepted Christ was given authority to become a son of God (John 1:12), Adam was termed a son of God (Luke 3:38), and most compellingly, Jesus asking the Father to make the disciples one (John 17:11) even as Jesus and the Father are one (not a matter of ontology) and soon thereafter that the disciples be made one with himself and the Father just as he and the Father were one (John 17: 21); likewise, not a matter of ontology.
Again, look at how Jesus' listeners responded. The pharisees in John 10 were getting ready to execute him on spot because "You, a mere man, claim to be God." Is it your contention that they misunderstood what he was saying? If that's the case, then why didn't Jesus say, "Woah, cool your jets, fellas, that's not what I meant..."
And in John 14, when his disciples asked to see the Father, Jesus plainly stated, "If you have seen me, then you have seen the Father."
Elsewhere in scripture, Jesus offers forgiveness for sins which is the exclusive purview of God. For instance, in Matthew 9, Jesus told a man that his sins were forgiven, and the pharisees called it blasphemy. Again, is it your argument that they misunderstood?
The New Testament is very clear on this point: Jesus and God were one in the same.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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