Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Derail: Two Natures of Christ

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    During the Transfiguration Jesus showed he was God the Son even while alive, before the resurrection. It was a revealing of who he really was.
    Do you mean the time when he underwent the change that to all appearances repeats the change that Moses experienced? (Exodus 34:29-35)
    Last edited by tabibito; 09-02-2022, 02:30 PM.
    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      Do you mean the time when he underwent the change that to all appearances repeats the change that Moses experienced? (Exodus 34:29-35)
      The transfiguration was more than that. It was Jesus showing his glory and divinity. While he was alive.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

        I don't require Paul to be in agreement with Paul. But in any case, a living, breathing crucified Jesus is the very essence of an ethereal non-humanity.
        A living, breathing crucified Jesus is wholly contradictory to ethereal non-humanity. It's sort of difficult to nail down something ethereal. The usual workarounds for the resurrection of Christ are 1) he didn't actually die a) because he was ethereal (docetism) or b) someone else was crucified (Mohammed), or 2) he stayed dead.
        A Mary-inclusive trinity is nowhere to be found in any sect I've run across.
        No, but exalted language about Mary could be taken that way by an outsider (and there were sects like the Messalians who did not consider the Holy Spirit to be divine).
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post

          The transfiguration was more than that. It was Jesus showing his glory and divinity. While he was alive.
          And yet - the descriptions would not give that impression.
          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
          Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

          "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

          Comment


          • #95
            Michael Maas (ed.). The Cambridge Companion to the Age of Justinian (Cambridge University Press, 2006), chapter 9
            Remarkably, it seems that this division (between Eastern and Western Churches) happened not, as a modern might think, because of nationalistic struggles against the empire, or any desire for autonomy by regional churches, but simply because church leaders, emperors, theologians, and monks, most of them devoted to the ideal of one church and one empire, were unable to resolve a longstanding theological dispute over how one was to understand and talk about Christ’s divine-human reality, the debate over Christology. In the end, the dispute left behind it not only divided churches, a weakened empire, and a redefined role for the emperor, but also new ways of thinking and believing that mark the beginning of Byzantium proper and the end of late antiquity. The Background Doctrinal Foundations and Founding Legends (100–400) The kind of Christianity that won the right to call itself the apostolic faith in the first two centuries CE established as authoritative the first three gospels and the teachings of Paul, all of which assumed the genuine humanity of Jesus. That was to be a foundation of mainline Christology. It is significant, however, that heirs of the original Jewish Christians, who seem to have said that Jesus was only a human being, were by 180 being dismissed as heretics, and that in 268 Paul of Samosata was condemned as a heretic for, among other things, saying that Jesus was a man inspired in essentially the same way as a prophet was inspired.


            The original beliefs came to be seen as heresy, until the mid twentieth century, when once more they begin to emerge with the concept of Jesus the man being somewhat more than a mere vehicle for the Holy Spirit. The man who lived and died had been God and was again, after resurrection, to be God (Romans 14:9, Revelation 1:17-18, 2:8)
            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              Michael Maas (ed.). The Cambridge Companion to the Age of Justinian (Cambridge University Press, 2006), chapter 9
              The kind of Christianity that won the right to call itself the apostolic faith in the first two centuries CE established as authoritative the first three gospels and the teachings of Paul, all of which assumed the genuine humanity of Jesus. That was to be a foundation of mainline Christology. It is significant, however, that heirs of the original Jewish Christians, who seem to have said that Jesus was only a human being, were by 180 being dismissed as heretics, and that in 268 Paul of Samosata was condemned as a heretic for, among other things, saying that Jesus was a man inspired in essentially the same way as a prophet was inspired.[/box][/FONT]


              The original beliefs came to be seen as heresy, until the mid twentieth century, when once more they begin to emerge with the concept of Jesus the man being somewhat more than a mere vehicle for the Holy Spirit. The man who lived and died had been God and was again, after resurrection, to be God (Romans 14:9, Revelation 1:17-18, 2:8)
              EDIT:
              That should read "mere vehicle for Logos." not "Holy Spirit."
              Gray (author of the chapter) says Christ was seen as "only a human ... essentially the same way as a prophet." The important item here (and I won't say he didn't put it somewhere), is that Christ was not seen as a human, however "ordinary," of human origin.
              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

              Comment


              • #97
                [QUOTE=Sparko;n1409353]
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                The bible is pretty clear that God's nature doesn't change. Malachi 3:6
                No, that's an INTERPRETATION of what it says. What it ACTUALLY says is that "I Am" does not change. It does not say His "nature" does not change. Taken at face value and as an isolated proof-text, it contradicts John 1:14, which clearly asserts that God / the Word "was" one thing and "became" another thing. THAT IS A "CHANGE." And it is a change from one NATURE to another. But we can avoid that by looking at Mal. 3:6 in context. It affirms that I Am is not fickle, but can be relied upon to keep His Covenant promises and be true to His revealed character of faithfulness and mercy.

                So I don't see how one of the three divine persons could stop being divine.
                "It's a mystery."

                They hypostatic union is clear that God's nature remained the same and added the human nature of Jesus to the Son. But your version has the Son's divine nature to stop existing, and become merely human.
                "Hypostatic union" is a fancy theologism to let us pretend we understand things and to paint over things that defy logic.


                What you are proposing seems to be a form of Nestorianism. Or maybe a hybrid of Nestorianism and Adoptionism.


                Nestorianism (5th Century)
                This heresy taught Mary only gave birth to Jesus’ human nature. The founder of the heresy, Nestorius, did not even want Mary to be called “Mother of God” but instead wanted her to be called “Mother of Christ”. In essence, the heresy maintained Jesus was really two separate persons, and only the human Jesus was in Mary’s womb. If that was true, then Jesus was not God incarnate while in the womb.

                Adoptionism (2nd Century)
                This heresy denies the pre-existence of Christ and therefore denies His Deity. It taught Jesus was simply a man who was tested by God and after passing the test was given supernatural powers and adopted as a son (this occurred at His baptism). Jesus was then rewarded for all He did (and for His perfect character) with His own resurrection and adoption into the Godhead.
                https://coldcasechristianity.com/wri...ture-of-jesus/


                And yet you keep ignoring the verses that show he was God incarnate while on Earth.

                Cite a specific verse or brief clear passage that shows Him to be "God incarnate," and define what you MEAN by "God incarnate."
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Federalist.

                Nationalist Christian.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                  During the Transfiguration Jesus showed he was God the Son even while alive, before the resurrection. It was a revealing of who he really was.
                  That's a reasonable interpretation, but only an interpretation. In context, the disciples with Him did not appear to think of Him as significantly more "divine" than Moses or Elijah. The event seemed to differ more in degree than kind from Moses and his radiant face in Ex. 34:33-35, and to a lesser extent Elijah and the heavenly chariot of fire.
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Federalist.

                  Nationalist Christian.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

                  Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                  Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                  Justice for Matthew Perna!

                  Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    I'm in agreement with the following quotes:

                    Walter Martin:

                    The New Testament irrefutably teaches that Christ did not exercise at least three prime attributes of deity while on the earth prior to His resurrection. These were omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence. Had He done so while a man, He could not have been perfect humanity. ...

                    The miracles of our Lord offer further proof of His limitations as a man, for He did not hesitate to teach that He personally worked none of them, and that it was the Father who performed the works (John 5:19, 30; John 8:28; 10:37, 38; 10:32; 14:10). ...

                    It can be said on good biblical ground that all of Christ's miracles, powers, and supernatural information were the result of the Father's action through Him, thus safeguarding our Lord's identity as a true man (John 14:10; John 5:30).

                    (Walter Martin, Essential Christianity, a Handbook of Basic Christian Doctrines, quoted by Rob Bowman in The Word-Faith Controversy.)

                    (Bowman considers Martin's views "heterodox" at worst, not "heretical.")

                    -----------------------

                    Gerald Hawthorn:

                    [I]t will become clear also that the Spirit so fully motivated Jesus' speech and actions that the miracles he performed and the words he spoke he spoke and performed not by virtue of his own power, the power of his own divine personality, but by virtue of the power of the Holy Spirit at work within him and through him.

                    That Jesus did his mighty works and preached his message with authority because he was enabled to do so by the Holy Spirit is the conclusion to which the Gospel writers came after reflecting on the extraordinary nature of his words and deeds. They expressed this conclusion both explicitly and implicitly.
                    (The Presence and the Power, pp. 145-146)
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Federalist.

                    Nationalist Christian.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

                    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                    Justice for Matthew Perna!

                    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                    Comment


                    • Found these notes on my computer:


                      We are "in" Christ -- Rom 8:1-2; 2 Cor. 3:14; 5:17; etc.

                      We are "in" Him -- 1 Cor. 1:5; 2 Cor. 5:21; Col. 2:11; etc.

                      We are "with" Him -- Rom. 6:4-8

                      We are heirs of God, fellow heirs with Christ -- Rom. 8:17

                      We are seated with Christ in heavenly realms -- Eph. 2:6, 1:20

                      We are partakers of the divine nature -- 2 Pet. 1:4

                      Jesus was/is King (Luke 19:38-40; John 1:49-50) and we are royalty (Rom. 5:17; 1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6, 5:10)

                      Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power (Acts 10:38) and we have an anointing of the Holy One (1 John 2:20).

                      The Spirit was upon Jesus (Luke 4:18) and provided Him power (4:14). The Spirit and power are upon us (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:8; 2:4-39; Rom. 15:19; 1 Cor. 2:4).

                      Jesus had authority on earth to forgive sins (Matt. 9:2-6), and those who have received the Spirit can forgive sins (John 20:22-23).

                      Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35) and we are born of the Spirit (John 3:5-8).

                      Jesus was(is) the beloved Son of God (Matt. 3:17; Mark 9:7; Luke 1:35, 3:22; etc.) and we are beloved (Eph. 5:1) children of God (Rom. 8:14; Gal. 3:26; 1 John 3:1-2).

                      Jesus called the Father "Abba" (Matt. 14:36) and so do we (Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:6).

                      Jesus was (uniquely) born of God (John 3:16, 18) and we are born of God (John 1:12-13), born from above (John 3:3, 7).

                      Jesus was announced (Luke 2:9-13) and served (Mark 1:13; Matt. 26:53) by angels, and angels are sent to serve on our behalf (Heb. 1:13-14).

                      Jesus calls us His brothers and sisters (Heb. 2:11).

                      Jesus calls us "friends" and NOT "slaves" (John 15:15).

                      Jesus healed the sick (Matt. 4:23, among many others) and believers heal the sick (Luke 9:2-6; Mark 16:18; 1 Cor. 12:9).

                      Jesus drove out demons and unclean spirits (Matt. 9:32) and believers do likewise (Matt. 10:1, Mark 16:17).

                      Jesus healed from a distance by his spoken word (John 4:47-53) and believers healed from a distance by cloths they (specifically Paul) had touched (Acts 19:12). Acts 5:15 suggests that sometimes people were healed merely by having the shadow of a believer (specifically Peter) touch them.

                      Jesus walked on water (Matt. 14:26) and calmed a storm (Mark 4:39). Moses (Ex. 14), Joshua (Josh. 3), Elijah, and Elisha (2 Ki. 2) parted bodies of water. Elijah summoned fire from heaven (1 Ki. 18). Elisha caused an ax head to float in water (2 Ki. 6).

                      Jesus turned water into wine (John 2). Moses turned the Nile river into blood (Ex. 7).

                      Jesus performed resurrections (Matt. 9:23-25; Luke 7:11-15; John 11:43-44), and so did Elijah (1 Ki. 17:17-22), Elisha (2 Ki. 4:31-35), Peter (Acts 9:37-41), and Paul (Acts 20:9-10).

                      Jesus multiplied food (John 6:1-14; Mark 8:1-9), and so did Elijah (1 Ki. 17:12-16) and Elisha (2 Ki. 4:1-7; 42-44).

                      Jesus demonstrated supernatural knowledge, and prophets in both Testaments regularly demonstrated supernatural knowledge.
                      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                      Beige Federalist.

                      Nationalist Christian.

                      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                      Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

                      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                      Justice for Matthew Perna!

                      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                      Comment

                      Related Threads

                      Collapse

                      Topics Statistics Last Post
                      Started by rstrats, 09-02-2022, 07:02 PM
                      2 responses
                      31 views
                      0 likes
                      Last Post rstrats
                      by rstrats
                       
                      Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 08-29-2022, 01:12 PM
                      353 responses
                      1,484 views
                      0 likes
                      Last Post Cow Poke  
                      Started by tabibito, 08-25-2022, 06:54 AM
                      99 responses
                      441 views
                      0 likes
                      Last Post NorrinRadd  
                      Started by little_monkey, 08-13-2022, 03:09 AM
                      305 responses
                      1,622 views
                      0 likes
                      Last Post shunyadragon  
                      Working...
                      X