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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Derail: Two Natures of Christ
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
I'm an atheist, but personally, I feel no point in getting into what I call the "Bible Trivia Game." It serves no purpose.
First, I don't really care, because I don't believe the bible anyways. So, I have no stake in being right or wrong.
Second, even if I were to "win", what's the point? First, see #1, Second, I doubt that by "winning" I would convince anyone to give up their religion (not a goal of mine anyways).
Third, I know the bible, nor care to read it, so why do this?
Fourth, "beating" christians at knowing their own book would be just about stroking my own ego, and I don't need to do that.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAmong devout Christians these discussions go well beyond "Bible Trivia Game" and into conversations that might very well offer us better insights into and knowledge about our faith.
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Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
I'm not talking about what Christians discuss, I'm talking about the game that many atheists (especially H_A) play, where the purpose seems to be showing christians don't know their holy book as well as the outsider does.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
1/ Jesus did not just use his God powers. Jesus denied that he did anything by his own authority (John 5:30) and asserted that people of faith would come to be able to do even more (John 14:12). Note particularly the people whom Jesus says will be doing the greater things.
2/ He performed miracles. So too did the disciples. Peter walked on water (briefly). Compellingly, Jesus did not attribute Peter's failure and going glug to Peter's humanity, but to his lack of faith. Luke 17:6 attributes authority to the person who has faith
Peter only walked on water because Jesus was there giving him the power to do so.
3/ He raised the dead. So too did Peter (Acts 9:39-40) and even Elisha (2Kings 4:32-34)
Matthew 2:11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.
Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."
John 9:37 Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you." 38 Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him
4/ He knew things that no-one could know. Jesus is not the only one to whom the question was addressed, "We have never met before, how do you know me?," and in analogous circumstances. Prophets generally know things that cannot be known; it comes with the office. (Not that prophesying is restricted to Prophets).
He also forgave sins. Not just sins against him personally, but all sins a person committed, such as the woman about to be stoned, the woman at the well, the thief on the cross, etc.
Jesus referred to himself as the "I AM"
John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
John 13:19 "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He."
some additional verses showing he was God on earth.
Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."
John says that God the Son (the Word) became flesh:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
So he was God when he lived among us.Last edited by Sparko; 08-25-2022, 09:22 AM.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThat is what he did do. After his response they were still acting against him, but no longer trying to stone him.
If that is to be interpreted along the lines that you suggest, Jesus wasn't claiming just that he was God, but that he was the Father.
Either they misunderstood, or Jesus did not bestow the authority to forgive sins on his disciples (John 20:22). If he bestowed that authority to forgive sins on men, that authority quite clearly is not restricted to God. John 20:22 indicates that the authority to forgive sins is bestowed on men by the Holy Spirit.
Notice that Jesus clearly identifies himself as someone who was uniquely consecrated by the Father and sent into the world. This follows on his earlier declaration that "I and the Father are one." There is nothing in this passage to suggest that the Pharisees who accused him of claiming to be God misunderstood what he was saying. Certainly no Christian could make such a claim without it being blasphemy.
Concerning John 14, Jesus and the Father are two aspects of the same being, so Jesus was correct to say, "If you have seen me, then you have seen the Father." Jesus was not claiming to be the Father, but he was claiming to be God (the Trinity can be a difficult concept to understand because there is no parallel for it in the natural world). Again, a Christian who said the same would be guilty of blasphemy.
Finally, in John 20, the disciples were being given a unique commission that Jesus could only have granted if he was God. If you ever encounter a Christian who takes it upon himself to bestow on others the authority to forgive sins, then stay far away from him because he is blaspheming.Last edited by Mountain Man; 08-25-2022, 09:39 AM.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSummary of my position:
1. Did Jesus ever say "I am God"?
Those exact words? No. Indirectly? Yes.
He made comments equating himself to his Father (God), did miracles that only God could do and claimed HE did them, not God through him, showed that he possessed qualities only God had such as omniscience, and accepted worship from others. The writers, especially John also did their best to show that Jesus was God, and even gave him many of the same titles as God. In Revelation Jesus even called himself the Alpha and Omega.
I think all Christians here will agree with this summary. The only one who seemed to have a problem with it was Hypatia.
-- IMO, John's Gospel is the one that most readily lends itself to being interpreted as having Jesus identify Himself with deity. But it is also the one that most readily lends itself to be interpreted as conferring some measure of deity on believers.
-- The Alpha and Omega, First and Last stuff from Revelation clearly identifies Jesus as I Am, but those are post-Resurrection claims.
OTOH, I agree that the fact that He accepted worship is strong evidence.
2. Was Jesus God before the resurrection?
The orthodox position on the Hypostatic Union (the dual nature of Christ as God and Man) is that it occurred at conception and continues forever onward. This is what John 1 says pretty clearly. That the Son became flesh and was born to Mary.
No, I don't find John 1 to be "clear" on that. Taken on its own, it "clearly" says that Jesus was one thing from "the beginning" or even earlier, and at a point in time "became" something else.
But taking that at face value would mean we would *not* take Heb. 10:5 and 13:8 at face value.
Really, it's not reasonably possible to reconcile the "clear" teaching of John 1:14 and Heb. 13:8. That, IMO, is why theologians invent words like "hypostatic union": To "resolve" the conflict by basically painting over it.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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The "I and the Father are one" statements are dicey for proving the deity of Christ, because in the portion of the Last Supper Discourse in John 17, Jesus freely moves back and forth using virtually identical language about the disciples as about Him and the Father.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostHe claimed to be equal to the Father (God).
Doing something under the authority of the Father does not mean he wasn't God the Son. And he took credit for his own miracles, not saying it was God doing it through him.
Peter only walked on water because Jesus was there giving him the power to do so.
Again Jesus didn't attribute his miracles to someone else, but himself. He also accepted worship from people.
Matthew 2:11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.
Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."
John 9:37 Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you." 38 Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him
Prophets only know what God has shown them. Jesus didn't have any visions before meeting the woman. He just knew.
He also forgave sins. Not just sins against him personally, but all sins a person committed, such as the woman about to be stoned, the woman at the well, the thief on the cross, etc.
Jesus referred to himself as the "I AM"
John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
John 13:19 "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He."
Would you think that Jesus was claiming to be God if you did not already believe that Jesus was God? Another sensei could readily make the same claims - he might be considered somewhat arrogant, but would anyone think such a person was claiming to be God?
Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."
John says that God the Son (the Word) became flesh:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
And another verse is indeed brought into play. Athanasius was not the only early Church theologian who made the claim that, during his incarnation as a man, Christ remained God. To the best of my knowledge, every one of the early theologians who made the claim explicitly denied that Logos (the Word) actually became flesh. (In ordinary English, the speaker would say "flesh and blood."Last edited by tabibito; 08-25-2022, 10:28 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostThe "I and the Father are one" statements are dicey for proving the deity of Christ, because in the portion of the Last Supper Discourse in John 17, Jesus freely moves back and forth using virtually identical language about the disciples as about Him and the Father.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
- 1 like
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[QUOTE=NorrinRadd;n1408057]
OTOH, I agree that the fact that He accepted worship is strong evidence.
No, I don't find John 1 to be "clear" on that. Taken on its own, it "clearly" says that Jesus was one thing from "the beginning" or even earlier, and at a point in time "became" something else.
But taking that at face value would mean we would *not* take Heb. 10:5 and 13:8 at face value.
Really, it's not reasonably possible to reconcile the "clear" teaching of John 1:14 and Heb. 13:8. That, IMO, is why theologians invent words like "hypostatic union": To "resolve" the conflict by basically painting over it.
** ἐλαττόω - lower (in rank or status)1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSummary of my position:
1. Did Jesus ever say "I am God"?
Those exact words? No. Indirectly? Yes.
He made comments equating himself to his Father (God), did miracles that only God could do and claimed HE did them, not God through him, showed that he possessed qualities only God had such as omniscience, and accepted worship from others. The writers, especially John also did their best to show that Jesus was God, and even gave him many of the same titles as God. In Revelation Jesus even called himself the Alpha and Omega.
I think all Christians here will agree with this summary. The only one who seemed to have a problem with it was Hypatia.
2. Was Jesus God before the resurrection?
The orthodox position on the Hypostatic Union (the dual nature of Christ as God and Man) is that it occurred at conception and continues forever onward. This is what John 1 says pretty clearly. That the Son became flesh and was born to Mary.
Specifically, "did miracles that only God could do and claimed HE did them, not God through him."
-- In places like Acts 5:16 and 8:7, healing is attributed to believers (or their shadows!), with no explicit mention of God doing it through them.
-- In Acts 10:38, Luke quotes Peter as saying that Jesus did His miracles "because God was with Him" (my emphasis), specifically by the power of the Holy Spirit.
-- Luke 5:17 makes a point of noting that on that particular occasion, "the power of the Lord was with Him to heal," suggesting at least the possibility that sometimes that power was NOT present.
-- Mark 5:30 suggests that the "power" was not totally under His direct conscious control. It also suggests His supposed "omniscience" did not function at all times.
Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
With the ambiguity of worship, that would depend on what he accepted worship as. A person could accept worship as an honourable person, or as a magistrate, etc so forth and so on, without any violation of anti worship provisions. In fact, it would be a breach of etiquette to refuse to show due obeisance.
An expanded interpretation "In the beginning Logos already was" is entirely appropriate.
10:5 would take some unravelling, 13:8 is interesting: interpretation would depend on when Jesus Christ (vis a vis Logos) actually came to be.
13:8 would also depend on whether "yesterday" was intended to extend as far into the past as "forever" extends into the future.
Or even ignoring comments such as those in Hebrews 2:9, which states that Jesus was for a time made lesser** than the angels.
** ἐλαττόω - lower (in rank or status)
So it's unclear when and how He was "lower" than angels, and the extent to which His status differed from ours w.r.t. angels.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
-
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
After some consideration, I have more quibbles.
Specifically, "[He] did miracles that only God could do and claimed HE did them, not God through him."
-- In places like Acts 5:16 and 8:7, healing is attributed to believers (or their shadows!), with no explicit mention of God doing it through them.
-- In Acts 10:38, Luke quotes Peter as saying that Jesus did His miracles "because God was with Him" (my emphasis), specifically by the power of the Holy Spirit.
-- Luke 5:17 makes a point of noting that on that particular occasion, "the power of the Lord was with Him to heal," suggesting at least the possibility that sometimes that power was NOT present.
-- Mark 5:30 suggests that the "power" was not totally under His direct conscious control. It also suggests His supposed "omniscience" did not function at all times.Last edited by tabibito; 08-25-2022, 03:43 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
You claim John 10 shows Jesus' telling his opponents that they misunderstood him and them relenting after his explanation, but that's not what it says in the text. Rather, Jesus doubles down on his claim to divinity, and the Jewish leaders again tried to seize him, no doubt with the intent of finishing what they had started when they picked up stones to execute him.
Notice that Jesus clearly identifies himself as someone who was uniquely consecrated by the Father and sent into the world. This follows on his earlier declaration that "I and the Father are one." There is nothing in this passage to suggest that the Pharisees who accused him of claiming to be God misunderstood what he was saying. Certainly no Christian could make such a claim without it being blasphemy.
Concerning John 14, Jesus and the Father are two aspects of the same being, so Jesus was correct to say, "If you have seen me, then you have seen the Father." Jesus was not claiming to be the Father, but he was claiming to be God (the Trinity can be a difficult concept to understand because there is no parallel for it in the natural world). Again, a Christian who said the same would be guilty of blasphemy.
Finally, in John 20, the disciples were being given a unique commission that Jesus could only have granted if he was God. If you ever encounter a Christian who takes it upon himself to bestow on others the authority to forgive sins, then stay far away from him because he is blaspheming.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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