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Derail: Two Natures of Christ

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  • #16

    ·
    Sparko
    #206
    Yesterday, 10:47 PM
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    Really? Are you denying that the opening verses of the gospel of Luke do not exist? And where does Jesus ever state I am god in any of the canonical gospels?


    He doesn't use those exact words but he does claim to be God in several places (e.g. "I and the Father are one"), and in other places people call him God and he doesn't object. But again that isn't a subject for CIVICS. Start a new thread if you want to discuss it.

    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #17
      ·
      tabibito
      #208
      Yesterday, 11:00 PM
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post


      Again, look at how Jesus' listeners responded. The pharisees in John 10 were getting ready to execute him on spot because "You, a mere man, claim to be God." Is it your contention that they misunderstood what he was saying? If that's the case, then why didn't Jesus say, "Woah, cool your jets, fellas, that's not what I meant..."
      That is what he did do. After his response they were still acting against him, but no longer trying to stone him.
      And in John 14, when his disciples asked to see the Father, Jesus plainly stated, "If you have seen me, then you have seen the Father."


      If that is to be interpreted along the lines that you suggest, Jesus wasn't claiming just that he was God, but that he was the Father.

      Elsewhere in scripture, Jesus offers forgiveness for sins which is the exclusive purview of God. For instance, in Matthew 9, Jesus told a man that his sins were forgiven, and the pharisees called it blasphemy. Again, is it your argument that they misunderstood?


      Either they misunderstood, or Jesus did not bestow the authority to forgive sins on his disciples (John 20:22). If he bestowed that authority to forgive sins on men, that authority quite clearly is not restricted to God. John 20:22 indicates that the authority to forgive sins is bestowed on men by the Holy Spirit.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #18
        ·
        Hypatia_Alexandria
        #210
        Yesterday, 11:19 PM
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post


        He doesn't use those exact words


        Precisely. Thank you for that confirmation.

        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #19
          Somehow, I seem to have missed Norrin Radd's mention of theosis.

          Otherwise everything seems to be OK - so ... copying is completed.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #20
            Good work anyway. but we could have just posted a summary of the discussion and continued from there

            From what I remember the discussion was basically

            1. Did Jesus call himself God?
            2. Was Jesus God when he was alive on earth before the resurrection?

            Tabibito seemed to indicate that he believes he was just a man when born and didn't take on the nature of God until the resurrection. Is this a correct summary of your position Tabibito?


            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by H_A


              Hypatia_Alexandria
              #194
              Yesterday, 07:16 PM

              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post


              I tend to agree. John 1 says that He "was" God and "became" flesh -- not necessarily the same as "taking on" flesh.

              But IMO He continued to be "I Am," whether or not He remained "God."


              I recommend you read up on some Neoplatonism as well as the complexities surrounding the Greek term "logos".
              Memra (Aramaic) or Dabar (Hebrew) translate as Logos. Given that actions are attributed to the "Memra/Dabar" of God in Old Testament texts, and the LXX uses Logos to translate Dabar. Any attribution of NT references to the Greek concepts of the demiurge, "Logos," is at best highly doubtful.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Good work anyway. but we could have just posted a summary of the discussion and continued from there

                From what I remember the discussion was basically

                1. Did Jesus call himself God?
                2. Was Jesus God when he was alive on earth before the resurrection?

                Tabibito seemed to indicate that he believes he was just a man when born and didn't take on the nature of God until the resurrection. Is this a correct summary of your position Tabibito?
                Throw in the additional "He was God (but abdicated temporarily) before his conception as a man" and yes, that is my tentative position.

                I can see where the "two natures" concept can be read into scripture, but I very much doubt that a person who had never encountered the concept would derive the concept FROM scripture. (other than the resurrected Christ having two natures - I have no argument with that concept.)
                Last edited by tabibito; 08-25-2022, 07:40 AM.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #23
                  Summary of my position:

                  1. Did Jesus ever say "I am God"?


                  Those exact words? No. Indirectly? Yes.

                  He made comments equating himself to his Father (God), did miracles that only God could do and claimed HE did them, not God through him, showed that he possessed qualities only God had such as omniscience, and accepted worship from others. The writers, especially John also did their best to show that Jesus was God, and even gave him many of the same titles as God. In Revelation Jesus even called himself the Alpha and Omega.

                  I think all Christians here will agree with this summary. The only one who seemed to have a problem with it was Hypatia.

                  2. Was Jesus God before the resurrection?

                  The orthodox position on the Hypostatic Union (the dual nature of Christ as God and Man) is that it occurred at conception and continues forever onward. This is what John 1 says pretty clearly. That the Son became flesh and was born to Mary.



                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                    Throw in the additional "He was God (but abdicated temporarily) before his conception as a man" and yes, that is my tentative position.

                    I can see where the "two natures" concept can be read into scripture, but I very much doubt that a person who had never encountered the concept would derive the concept FROM scripture. (other than the resurrected Christ having two natures - I have no argument with that concept.)
                    Jesus didn't USE some of his God "powers" while living as a man, but he still had them. He merely didn't access them in some way. He did miracles, raised the dead, knew things no human could know (like the entire history of the woman at the well even though he just met her). So he still had his God nature when he was alive as a man.


                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Good Luck. H_A tends to ignore these derail threads once they've been spun off, almost like the whole point in the discussion was the derail...

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                        Jesus didn't USE some of his God "powers" while living as a man, but he still had them. He merely didn't access them in some way. He did miracles, raised the dead, knew things no human could know (like the entire history of the woman at the well even though he just met her). So he still had his God nature when he was alive as a man.
                        1/ Jesus did not just use his God powers. Jesus denied that he did anything by his own authority (John 5:30) and asserted that people of faith would come to be able to do even more (John 14:12). Note particularly the people whom Jesus says will be doing the greater things.
                        2/ He performed miracles. So too did the disciples. Peter walked on water (briefly). Compellingly, Jesus did not attribute Peter's failure and going glug to Peter's humanity, but to his lack of faith. Luke 17:6 attributes authority to the person who has faith,
                        3/ He raised the dead. So too did Peter (Acts 9:39-40) and even Elisha (2Kings 4:32-34)
                        4/ He knew things that no-one could know. Jesus is not the only one to whom the question was addressed, "We have never met before, how do you know me?," and in analogous circumstances. Prophets generally know things that cannot be known; it comes with the office. (Not that prophesying is restricted to Prophets).
                        Last edited by tabibito; 08-25-2022, 08:23 AM.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
                          Good Luck. H_A tends to ignore these derail threads once they've been spun off, almost like the whole point in the discussion was the derail...
                          Our atheist in residence's action and attitude isn't particularly germane to important discussions.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                            Jesus didn't USE some of his God "powers" while living as a man, but he still had them. He merely didn't access them in some way. He did miracles, raised the dead, knew things no human could know (like the entire history of the woman at the well even though he just met her). So he still had his God nature when he was alive as a man.
                            None of those abilities differ from abilities demonstrated by Spirit-empowered humans both before and after Jesus.
                            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                            Beige Federalist.

                            Nationalist Christian.

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                            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

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                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              Our atheist in residence's action and attitude isn't particularly germane to important discussions.
                              I'm an atheist, but personally, I feel no point in getting into what I call the "Bible Trivia Game." It serves no purpose.

                              First, I don't really care, because I don't believe the bible anyways. So, I have no stake in being right or wrong.
                              Second, even if I were to "win", what's the point? First, see #1, Second, I doubt that by "winning" I would convince anyone to give up their religion (not a goal of mine anyways).
                              Third, I know the bible, nor care to read it, so why do this?
                              Fourth, "beating" christians at knowing their own book would be just about stroking my own ego, and I don't need to do that.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                                I'm an atheist, but personally, I feel no point in getting into what I call the "Bible Trivia Game." It serves no purpose.
                                Apologies - I was referring to our fundy-atheist in residence. (H_A).



                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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