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Derail: Two Natures of Christ

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  • Derail: Two Natures of Christ

    This topic started in the Civics thread where it doesn't belong, so I'm transferring copies of the relevant posts here. Apologies if I have omitted any.
    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

  • #2
    ·
    Hypatia_Alexandria
    Yesterday, 03:18 AM
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post


    The writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit



    Not one canonical gospel has the anonymous author alleging he is are writing an inspired text. Luke's gospel is in the form of an account [based on his investigations] to his "excellent" Theophilus.
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    Who is God. And Jesus is God


    There is no verse in any of the canonical gospels where Jesus declares he is θεός/theos. Other [even later] NT writers and their theological beliefs are another matter.

    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    , so basically Jesus did inspire the words in the bible.


    According to your beliefs.
    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

    Comment


    • #3

      Sparko
      Yesterday, 04:32 AM
      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      Not one canonical gospel has the anonymous author alleging he is are writing an inspired text. Luke's gospel is in the form of an account [based on his investigations] to his "excellent" Theophilus.

      There is no verse in any of the canonical gospels where Jesus declares he is θεός/theos. Other [even later] NT writers and their theological beliefs are another matter.

      According to your beliefs.



      Well you are wrong on all counts but this isn't the thread to get into it. But what more would I expect from you?
      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
      Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

      "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

      Comment


      • #4

        ·
        tabibito
        Yesterday, 05:07 AM
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post


        Well you are wrong on all counts but this isn't the thread to get into it. But what more would I expect from you?

        Here let you argue with you...



        There are enough New Testament references showing that Jesus was God before his conception and after his resurrection, but I'm not aware of any New Testament reference that claims Jesus of Nazareth (birth to execution) was God.
        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

        Comment


        • #5

          ·
          Sparko
          #187
          Yesterday, 05:51 AM

          Originally posted by tabibito View Post


          There are enough New Testament references showing that Jesus was God before his conception and after his resurrection, but I'm not aware of any New Testament reference that claims Jesus of Nazareth (birth to execution) was God.


          You think he stopped being God when he was alive? So God the Son didn't exist while Jesus was alive? John 1 says that Jesus was God in the flesh. And that is just one instance.
          Also Jesus wasn't "Jesus" before his conception, he was just God the Son. When he took on flesh he became known as Jesus.

          But again this isn't the thread.

          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
          Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

          "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

          Comment


          • #6
            ·
            Hypatia_Alexandria
            #190
            Yesterday, 07:05 AM
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post


            Well you are wrong on all counts


            Really? Are you denying that the opening verses of the gospel of Luke do not exist? And where does Jesus ever state I am god in any of the canonical gospels?


            #191
            Yesterday, 07:05 AM
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post


            You think he stopped being God when he was alive? So God the Son didn't exist while Jesus was alive? John 1 says that Jesus was God in the flesh. And that is just one instance.
            Also Jesus wasn't "Jesus" before his conception, he was just God the Son. When he took on flesh he became known as Jesus.

            But again this isn't the thread.


            You are repeating much later Christian theology.
            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

            Comment


            • #7

              NorrinRadd

              #192
              Yesterday, 03:45 PM
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              There are enough New Testament references showing that Jesus was God before his conception and after his resurrection, but I'm not aware of any New Testament reference that claims Jesus of Nazareth (birth to execution) was God.


              I tend to agree. John 1 says that He "was" God and "became" flesh -- not necessarily the same as "taking on" flesh.

              But IMO He continued to be "I Am," whether or not He remained "God."

              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

              Comment


              • #8
                __________________________________________________ _______________
                ·
                tabibito
                #193
                Yesterday, 04:30 PM
                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post


                I tend to agree. John 1 says that He "was" God and "became" flesh -- not necessarily the same as "taking on" flesh.


                {ETA} It is said that Jesus was claiming to be God when he said “I AM” {/ETA}
                So did the man who had been blind from birth (John 9:9 in Koine Greek texts), and Paul come to that - it seems reasonable to assume that neither was claiming to be God. Add in Philippians 2:6-8.
                But IMO He continued to be "I Am," whether or not He remained "God."



                Hebrew lacks the substantive "to be" so "I am a student" in Hebrew is "I student." In the LXX, the Hebrew "I" (ani/aniki) is consistently translated to "ego eimi," not merely "eimi" (am). LXX records that God said to Moses "ego eimi ho oen, tell them (Israelites and Pharaoh) that ho oen has sent you." The Koine Greek "name" for God is not "ego eimi" but "ho oen" ("the living one," or even "the entity").

                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                Comment


                • #9



                  Hypatia_Alexandria
                  #194
                  Yesterday, 07:16 PM

                  Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post


                  I tend to agree. John 1 says that He "was" God and "became" flesh -- not necessarily the same as "taking on" flesh.

                  But IMO He continued to be "I Am," whether or not He remained "God."



                  I recommend you read up on some Neoplatonism as well as the complexities surrounding the Greek term "logos".

                  1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                  Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                  "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                  Comment


                  • #10


                    rogue06
                    #197
                    Yesterday, 08:09 PM
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                    The evidence for a late addition of the forgiven adulteress, the most compelling being that it doesn't always appear in the same place, seems sound enough.

                    I don't know of anyone who does not agree that the Pericope Adulterae is a later addition to the text. A tradition thought too important to lose and not incorporate
                    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                    Comment


                    • #11


                      tabibito
                      #198
                      Yesterday, 08:19 PM
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

                      I don't know of anyone who does not agree that the Pericope Adulterae is a later addition to the text. A tradition thought too important to lose and not incorporate.

                      Agreed. Not original to the text doesn't mean inauthentic, and it is a very important pericope.
                      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                      Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                      "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                      Comment


                      • #12

                        rogue06

                        #199
                        Yesterday, 08:22 PM
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post


                        Agreed. Not original to the text doesn't mean inauthentic, and it is a very important pericope.

                        And confirms the idea that there was a great deal more that Jesus did that wasn't contained in the Gospels
                        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          ·
                          Mountain Man
                          #202
                          Yesterday, 09:57 PM
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post


                          There are enough New Testament references showing that Jesus was God before his conception and after his resurrection, but I'm not aware of any New Testament reference that claims Jesus of Nazareth (birth to execution) was God.


                          Jesus made a number of statements that were clearly understood by his listeners to be claims of divinity. See John 10 for one example.

                          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                          Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                          "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                          Comment


                          • #14

                            tabibito
                            Yesterday, 10:24 PM
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post


                            Jesus made a number of statements that were clearly understood by his listeners to be claims of divinity. See John 10 for one example.


                            Clearly not the case. Even his disciples thought of him as a prophet (viz Luke 24:19)

                            Ah yes. John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

                            How does that work with Jesus declaring that the claim to be a son of God is not a claim to be God? (the people who received the scripture were termed gods: John 10:35) . Anyone who accepted Christ was given authority to become a son of God (John 1:12), Adam was termed a son of God (Luke 3:38), and most compellingly, Jesus asking the Father to make the disciples one (John 17:11) even as Jesus and the Father are one (not a matter of ontology) and soon thereafter that the disciples be made one with himself and the Father just as he and the Father were one (John 17: 21); likewise, not a matter of ontology.

                            Then there is Hebrews 2:9 - "It was necessary that he be made for a time lesser than the angels."


                            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                            Comment


                            • #15


                              Mountain Man#205
                              Yesterday, 10:45 PM
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post


                              Clearly not the case. Even his disciples thought of him as a prophet (viz Luke 24:19)

                              Ah yes. John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

                              How does that work with Jesus declaring that the claim to be a son of God is not a claim to be God? (the people who received the scripture were termed gods: John 10:35) . Anyone who accepted Christ was given authority to become a son of God (John 1:12), Adam was termed a son of God (Luke 3:38), and most compellingly, Jesus asking the Father to make the disciples one (John 17:11) even as Jesus and the Father are one (not a matter of ontology) and soon thereafter that the disciples be made one with himself and the Father just as he and the Father were one (John 17: 21); likewise, not a matter of ontology.


                              Again, look at how Jesus' listeners responded. The pharisees in John 10 were getting ready to execute him on spot because "You, a mere man, claim to be God." Is it your contention that they misunderstood what he was saying? If that's the case, then why didn't Jesus say, "Woah, cool your jets, fellas, that's not what I meant..."

                              And in John 14, when his disciples asked to see the Father, Jesus plainly stated, "If you have seen me, then you have seen the Father."

                              Elsewhere in scripture, Jesus offers forgiveness for sins which is the exclusive purview of God. For instance, in Matthew 9, Jesus told a man that his sins were forgiven, and the pharisees called it blasphemy. Again, is it your argument that they misunderstood?

                              The New Testament is very clear on this point: Jesus and God were one in the same.


                              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                              Comment

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