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Question About Numbers 15:32–36

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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    This time I will stipulate the first century CE. What happened in other times, and particularly before Augustus, is not germane.
    The Jews were exempt from military service throughout the first century CE.

    Again from Smallwood:

    Philo says in the Legatio that Augustus' measures for the protection of the Jews secured their religious liberty throughout the empire during his principate and his successor's, "although there was an upheaval in Italy when Sejanus was contriving his attack. For Tiberius realized immediately after his death that the charges brought against the Jews living in Rome were unfounded slanders, fabricated by Sejanus; he wanted to wipe out the Jewish race because he knew that, if treachery threatened the emperor, they would be his sole, or at any rate his keenest, champions against treason, whether actually attempted or merely plotted. He instructed all provincial governors to reassure the members of the Jewish race resident in their cities by telling them that retribution would fall on those few of them who were guilty and not on all indiscriminately; furthermore, there was to be no break with tradition, but governors were to treat both the Jews themselves and their laws alike as a sacred trust, since they were people of a peaceful disposition and their laws were conducive to public order."


    However, that was all before 66 CE. After 70 CE Jews would most certainly not have been recruited [nor wanted] for the army!
    Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 08-17-2022, 11:13 AM.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      Well the opening verses of chapter ten of Acts tell us the following:

      In Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of the Italian Cohort, as it was called. 2 He was a devout man who feared God with all his household; he gave alms generously to the people and prayed constantly to God. 3 One afternoon at about three o’clock he had a vision in which he clearly saw an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius.” 4 He stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” He answered, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa for a certain Simon who is called Peter; 6 he is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the seaside.” 7 When the angel who spoke to him had left, he called two of his slaves and a devout soldier from the ranks of those who served him, 8 and after telling them everything he sent them to Joppa.


      So what was he? Which God did he fear? And which God sent an angel to him giving him instructions to send men for "a certain Simon who is called Peter"?
      The text does not say he was a practicing Jew, nor anything that can be said to indicate as much: the text states that he was devout and god-fearing. In Biblical literature, a God fearing man is often one who is a Yahwist, it doesn't necessarily indicate that he is a practicing Jew (or Christian). Whatever the rules that might have applied to Jews, they are irrelevant.


      You "know" that miracles are not real, so you reject any report of miracles. You "know" that Cornelius could not have been a centurion, so you reject the report in Acts.
      Strangely, the original audience for Luke's report would have known whether or not Cornelius could have been a centurion. They didn't reject the report: ergo, what you "know" about Cornelius is a false knowledge.



      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        The text does not say he was a practicing Jew, nor anything that can be said to indicate as much: the text states that he was devout and god-fearing. In Biblical literature, a God fearing man is often one who is a Yahwist, it doesn't necessarily indicate that he is a practicing Jew (or Christian). Whatever the rules that might have applied to Jews, they are irrelevant.
        As no mention is made of his religious background [prior to his experiences in chapter 10 of Acts] your speculations are irrelevant.


        Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        You "know" that miracles are not real, so you reject any report of miracles. You "know" that Cornelius could not have been a centurion, so you reject the report in Acts.
        I am merely asking rogue06 [for whom you appear to be acting as sock puppet] if he could explain how there would have been no inherent conflict in an auxiliary Roman officer holding religious beliefs that were in direct opposition to the religious ceremonies and rituals of the Roman auxiliary unit with which he would have had to conform as a serving officer. So far rogue06 has gone into radio silence on this despite his alacrity in replying to me earlier today and indeed yesterday!

        The other possibility is that this individual [assuming he existed] had retired from the army. And again, as I noted to rogue06 in the same post #103, were that the case:

        his somewhat eccentric religious practises would have occasioned no controversy among his former military comrades.


        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        Strangely, the original audience for Luke's report would have known whether or not Cornelius could have been a centurion. They didn't reject the report: ergo, what you "know" about Cornelius is a false knowledge.
        Anyone reading chapter ten of Acts dispassionately can see it is narrative embellishment. However, I note that that is the best you can offer

        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          As no mention is made of his religious background [prior to his experiences in chapter 10 of Acts] your speculations are irrelevant.



          Anyone reading chapter ten of Acts dispassionately can see it is narrative embellishment. However, I note that that is the best you can offer
          You don't have the slightest idea of what a dispassionate reading looks like.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            You don't have the slightest idea of what a dispassionate reading looks like.
            Again, duly noted, that that is the best you can offer!
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              Again, duly noted, that that is the best you can offer!
              I'll take your last two posts as your "admission" that you can't find anything logical to support your argument.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                I'll take your last two posts as your "admission" that you can't find anything logical to support your argument.
                What argument?

                I have posed some questions that neither you, nor anyone else, has adequately addressed.


                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • What argument?

                  I have posed some questions
                  The bid for plausible deniability failed.

                  that neither you, nor anyone else, has adequately addressed.
                  Questions that demand speculation which will then be dismissed because it is speculation.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                    The bid for plausible deniability failed.
                    Nothing I have written can be considered illegal or unethical nor can it be explained away under the guise of innocence. Your phrase is therefore inapposite.


                    I have raised the following questions over the course of exchanges on this thread:
                    1. Why would a [probably illiterate] Galilean Jewish peasant fisherman have the slightest interest in Greek philosophical ideas or the Greek language?
                    2. Is rogue06 [with his references to the Cohors II Italica Civium Romanorum] i.e. the Italian cohort that is mentioned in the opening verse of chapter ten of Acts, attempting to claim that there were Roman legions permanently garrisoned in Judaea prior to 70 CE?
                    3. How could a centurion in an auxiliary Roman cohort have held religious beliefs that were in direct opposition to the religious ceremonies and rituals of his unit with which he would have had to conform as a serving officer?

                    Question 2 & 3 have been ignored by rogue06, [who appears reluctant to address awkward questions] nor yourself, nor indeed Sparko who posed the initial question:

                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                    Why couldn't a fisherman learn about Greek ideas?


                    You have asked questions about Jews in the Roman military from the late first century BCE up to the end of the first century CE, which have been answered with quotes from a distinguished academic and recognised expert in Romano-Jewish history of those periods.

                    You have also tried to evade what we have in the textual evidence concerning the alleged character of Cornelius by alleging:

                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                    And just as a BTW, nothing indicates that Cornelius was adherent to the Christian sect, nor for that matter that he was even classed an observant proselyte in the strict sense.


                    A remark that leads one to wonder why the author of Acts bothered to mention this individual at all in chapter ten of Acts; and, more to the point, what precise god is being referenced in verse 2 where we are told that Cornelius " was a devout man who feared God with all his household"?





                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      Nothing I have written can be considered illegal or unethical nor can it be explained away under the guise of innocence. Your phrase is therefore inapposite.


                      I have raised the following questions over the course of exchanges on this thread:
                      1. Why would a [probably illiterate] Galilean Jewish peasant fisherman have the slightest interest in Greek philosophical ideas or the Greek language?
                      2. Is rogue06 [with his references to the Cohors II Italica Civium Romanorum] i.e. the Italian cohort that is mentioned in the opening verse of chapter ten of Acts, attempting to claim that there were Roman legions permanently garrisoned in Judaea prior to 70 CE?
                      3. How could a centurion in an auxiliary Roman cohort have held religious beliefs that were in direct opposition to the religious ceremonies and rituals of his unit with which he would have had to conform as a serving officer?

                      Question 2 & 3 have been ignored by rogue06, [who appears reluctant to address awkward questions] nor yourself, nor indeed Sparko who posed the initial question:



                      You have asked questions about Jews in the Roman military from the late first century BCE up to the end of the first century CE, which have been answered with quotes from a distinguished academic and recognised expert in Romano-Jewish history of those periods.

                      You have also tried to evade what we have in the textual evidence concerning the alleged character of Cornelius by alleging:



                      A remark that leads one to wonder why the author of Acts bothered to mention this individual at all in chapter ten of Acts; and, more to the point, what precise god is being referenced in verse 2 where we are told that Cornelius " was a devout man who feared God with all his household"?




                      Most of those questions can only be answered through speculation, which would be peremptorily dismissed by you if it was advanced ... you have already done so for more than one of them.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                        Most of those questions can only be answered through speculation, which would be peremptorily dismissed by you if it was advanced ... you have already done so for more than one of them.
                        They can be addressed by examining the known historical evidence pertaining to those various situations prevailing at the time [not by appealing to early Christian texts].

                        However, as you have noted,


                        I am not well versed in history.


                        Nor is it a discipline with which [self-evidently] rogue06 is overly conversant, despite his affectations obtained via internet trawling.
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          Most of those questions can only be answered through speculation, which would be peremptorily dismissed by you if it was advanced ... you have already done so for more than one of them.
                          Moreover one is based upon an assumption of hers that she is trying to stick on to me and then demand I defend it.

                          Further, it seems very strange that our local "historian" is unaware that, as history attests, Jews regularly served in the Roman Army. She's taking her personal incredulity over the historical record yet again. No different than her steadfast denial that Christian communities in the 1st and 2nd century maintained contact with one another. History confirms it but she just can't imagine it so therefore the historical record is to be tossed out in favor of her ignorance-fueled proclamations.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Moreover one is based upon an assumption of hers that she is trying to stick on to me and then demand I defend it.
                            You introduced Acts 10 and the Roman auxiliary cohort.

                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Further, it seems very strange that our local "historian" is unaware that, as history attests, Jews regularly served in the Roman Army.
                            You first need to explain how practising Jews could serve in the Roman military and secondly you also need to provide some attested historical evidence from the late first century BCE and the first century CE that:

                            Jews regularly served in the Roman Army


                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              Moreover one is based upon an assumption of hers that she is trying to stick on to me and then demand I defend it.

                              Further, it seems very strange that our local "historian" is unaware that, as history attests, Jews regularly served in the Roman Army. She's taking her personal incredulity over the historical record yet again. No different than her steadfast denial that Christian communities in the 1st and 2nd century maintained contact with one another. History confirms it but she just can't imagine it so therefore the historical record is to be tossed out in favor of her ignorance-fueled proclamations.
                              Well now - as to what history attests, one might be well advised to question whether Roman troops would have been stationed long term or perhaps permanently in (one of) the (Roman) military and (Roman) governmental centres of Judaea. After all, there was a (Roman) garrison in Antonia, Jerusalem, so there would have been no need for stationing troops anywhere else in Judaea - certainly not in a military centre, which just happened to be the same city as the governor's residence.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                You introduced Acts 10 and the Roman auxiliary cohort.
                                A cohort is not a legion.

                                As to the Cohors II Italica Civium Romanorum, it is mentioned in Acts. Deal with it.

                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                You first need to explain how practising Jews could serve in the Roman military and secondly you also need to provide some attested historical evidence from the late first century BCE and the first century CE that:

                                Jews regularly served in the Roman Army

                                Wrong. Given that the historical record clearly shows that there were Jews in the Roman legions (Google it yourself), you are the one who needs to show that this isn't the case. Nobody is going to go on just your say so.

                                And I see you are having issues with time periods yet again (or is it still?), given that we aren't talking about the 1st century B.C. and none of what we are talking about would have taken place and many of those involved wouldn't have even been born.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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