Originally posted by tabibito
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Question About Numbers 15:32–36
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Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
Mmm... Some claim he was familiar with at least oral traditions found in the Gospels, such as the "divorce" teaching to which he gave his own additions, and the sayings recited during the Lord's Supper -- both allusions found in 1 Cor., IIRC.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
I am claiming that Matthew was written by the eponymous disciple who knew Jesus personally; that Peter's epistles were written by the eponymous disciple who knew Jesus personally (albeit likely with the aid of two different amanuenses), that Mark was written by John Mark, that the Johannine Gospel and Epistles were written by John, probably "the disciple whom Jesus loved." I am claiming that virtually everyone throughout the Roman Empire in the First Century was *at least* "conversant" with Greek ideas and especially language in addition to, and sometimes in preference to, their own ancestral languages and beliefs. I am claiming that the acts, including miracles, attributed to Jesus by the authors were historically factual and true, though not always recorded in the same detail nor chronological order. I am claiming that the teachings attributed to Jesus by the authors are accurate in substance if not verbatim detail.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
With regard to the language: the children of expatriate Jews frequently did not know Hebrew.
We are told in Mark chapter 4 that while walking by the sea of Galilee Jesus called Peter and Andrew who were fishermen. Why would two fishermen living in Galilee not know Aramaic? .
Originally posted by tabibito View PostRomans frequently did not bother to learn the local languages."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Not a particularly successful dodge - what you in fact said was
Or are you trying to claim a Jewish Galilean artisan fishermen was conversant with Greek ideas and the Greek language
And as yet no one has actually addressed my question- as to why a [probably illiterate] devout Jewish Galilean artisan fisherman would have the slightest interest in the Greek language and Greek philosophical ideas?"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostGiven the situation, for Jesus to not have picked up so Greek ideas and words (and maybe some Roman as well) would be like someone living along the Mexican border and not knowing any Spanish. You'd have to make a very determined effort to avoid it."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostIt's beyond debate to say that Paul's epistles didn't have a profound effect on Christianity, but H_A would have us believe that his was the only tradition and we should ignore the Synoptic, Johannine and Petrine influences as insignificant."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Not really. You conflated my separate replies to two different individuals.
And as yet no one has actually addressed my question- as to why a [probably illiterate] devout Jewish Galilean artisan fisherman would have the slightest interest in the Greek language and Greek philosophical ideas?
You are putting the proverbial wagon before the proverbial horse. Paul is our earliest source. All the rest of those NT texts came later.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Roman words? Or did you mean Latin? And why would he have "picked up" Latin in the Roman east? Your unfortunate tendency to conflate modern situations with contemporary situations prevailing in the ancient world is once again noted.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
You are putting the proverbial wagon before the proverbial horse. Paul is our earliest source. All the rest of those NT texts came later.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostJudaea had been a Roman province for a few generations by Jesus' time. Obviously nobody would ever pick up bits of the language of their conqueror and occupier (Acts 10 mentions the presence of an Italian cohort in Judaea).
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Plenty of reasons why a person in the first century might choose to learn the trade tongue of the Roman empire.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostPretending that you believe a person in the Galilee region would not have had occasion or opportunity to learn Koine Greek is somewhat disingenuous.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostYou're still preaching that nonsense?
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Galilee was not Judaea. And the lingua franca for the eastern empire was Greek.
Still the conquerors were Roman and Roman soldiers were stationed throughout the region. I think it was Zeichmann who noted that there were 4 Legions and over a dozen cohorts stationed in there.
Finally, you seem to equate learning some words and phrases with being fluent in the language.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
Funny. Not to long ago you were arguing that Galileans wouldn't know any Greek. Please make up your mind.
For the educated and mercantile classes Greek was the lingua franca of the eastern empire.
However, there is no evidence that Hellenization had made any significant inroads into rural Galilee in the early first century CE. Galilean cities such as Tiberias and Sepphoris are, however, in a different category.
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostStill the conquerors were Roman and Roman soldiers were stationed throughout the region.
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostI think it was Zeichmann who noted that there were 4 Legions and over a dozen cohorts stationed in there.
There were no legions stationed permanently in either Galilee or Judaea in the first three decades of the first century CE. At that period legionary garrisons were stationed in Syria and in Egypt."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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"Paul is our earliest source. All the rest of those NT texts came later." Hypatia
"You're still preaching that nonsense"?-Tab
What? This isn't true? I have always heard and read that Paul's epistles were the first to be written. Not that it matters to me, and I don't see any real import that might change the way we look at the Gospels, as though the Gospels are less credible. I've just always heard that Paul's writings came real early in the history of Christianity, earlier than the other books of the NT.
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