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Question About Numbers 15:32–36

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  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post



    Given your affectations concerning all things Roman and Roman military One might assume that you would have known that a cohort in this specific instance was not a legion or even a part of a legion. This was an auxiliary cohort. Legionary cohorts were in a totally different category.

    Given the Roman practise of recruiting locally for its auxiliary forces regardless of where the unit had been originally raised, this individual was most likely from somewhere within the region.

    If indeed Cornelius [assuming he existed] was a serving centurion he have would found his new religious affiliations somewhat at variance with his official duties in the Roman army and its religious ceremonies, for example, the cult of the standards. It should also be noted that Jews, because of their religious practises and beliefs, were exempted from serving in the Roman military. If this character has any historical basis it would seem more probable that he was retired from the Roman army and therefore his somewhat eccentric religious practises would have occasioned no controversy among his former military comrades.

    With regard to your question about permanently stationed legions. Roman legions were garrisoned in legionary fortresses. At this period there were none in Judaea or Galilee. Varus had suppressed the uprising following the death of Herod the Great and had used his legionary troops to do so. However, this was a temporary measure until order had been restored and the political affairs of the region settled.

    However, after 70 CE there was a legion garrisoned in Judaea and its commander was also the governor of the new praetorian province of Judaea.
    You may notice that I specified both legions and cohorts.

    Are you familiar with the Cohors II Italica Civium Romanorum? FWIU, they were something established by Julius Caesar and consisted of troops from Italia. The name gives it away ("the cohort called Italian" or "Second Italian band of Roman citizens"). Of course over time the membership did change with most being Syrian, according to Josephus IIRC -- but he could be talking about later.[1]

    That they were a notable group is likely why Luke goes out of his way to mention it.

    More importantly. They were most certainly not part of Herod's crew.

    Typically, scholars in recent years like Alexander J.M. Wedderburn[2], posit that Cornelius was permitted to live in Caesarea away from his unit, or that this is evidence that they were in the region before 40A.D.[3], the other earliest but uncertain mention of them being there, which is the view of Michael Speidel[1] and others.





    1. In his Roman Army Studies, Michael Speidel notes that "after Titus’ Jewish war the Flavian emperors revamped the Judaean army, and at the same time ”cohors II Italica” seems to have been transferred north into Syria," but maintains "yet for the time of the procurators there is no reason to doubt the accuracy of Acts 10."

    p. 228 (1992). Oh and volume 2.
    2. A History of the First Christians, p. 217 (2004).


    3. D. B. Saddington's Roman Military and Administrative Personnel in the New Testament, in Haase, W. (ed.), ANRW* 26.3 (Part 2, Principat; Berlin: De Gruyter) pp. 2409-2435 (1996).

    Their operation in Judaea cannot be placed before AD 40 on the evidence available, but it is of course possible that they had been sent there before that, even under the first prefect after the fall of Archelaus.’


    * Aufstieg und Niedergang der römischen Welt (Rise and Fall of the Roman World)




    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
      I shall ask you the same question I put to another lamentably ignorant individual. Does the name Alexander of Macedon mean anything to you?
      Are you proposing that he was Roman or lived during the time of the Roman Empire?

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        I shall ask you the same question I put to another lamentably ignorant individual. Does the name Alexander of Macedon mean anything to you?
        It didn't. However, the attempt to cover your mistake with an unrelated reference is not at all surprising.
        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          It didn't. However, the attempt to cover your mistake with an unrelated reference is not at all surprising.
          This is really a debate that the H_A who said it was foolhardy to think that Galileans would be exposed to much less know some Greek and the H_A who now says that Greek was common in Galilee.

          Maybe tomorrow I'll see if I can dig up that thread for some old fashioned compare and contrast.

          Maybe.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            This is really a debate that the H_A who said it was foolhardy to think that Galileans would be exposed to much less know some Greek and the H_A who now says that Greek was common in Galilee.

            Maybe tomorrow I'll see if I can dig up that thread for some old fashioned compare and contrast.

            Maybe.
            It doesn't seem overly necessary - I remember her using that line of argument.
            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              You may notice that I specified both legions and cohorts.

              Are you familiar with the Cohors II Italica Civium Romanorum? FWIU, they were something established by Julius Caesar and consisted of troops from Italia. The name gives it away ("the cohort called Italian" or "Second Italian band of Roman citizens"). Of course over time the membership did change with most being Syrian, according to Josephus IIRC -- but he could be talking about later.[1]

              That they were a notable group is likely why Luke goes out of his way to mention it.

              More importantly. They were most certainly not part of Herod's crew.

              Typically, scholars in recent years like Alexander J.M. Wedderburn[2], posit that Cornelius was permitted to live in Caesarea away from his unit, or that this is evidence that they were in the region before 40A.D.[3], the other earliest but uncertain mention of them being there, which is the view of Michael Speidel[1] and others.





              1. In his Roman Army Studies, Michael Speidel notes that "after Titus’ Jewish war the Flavian emperors revamped the Judaean army, and at the same time ”cohors II Italica” seems to have been transferred north into Syria," but maintains "yet for the time of the procurators there is no reason to doubt the accuracy of Acts 10."

              p. 228 (1992). Oh and volume 2.
              2. A History of the First Christians, p. 217 (2004).


              3. D. B. Saddington's Roman Military and Administrative Personnel in the New Testament, in Haase, W. (ed.), ANRW* 26.3 (Part 2, Principat; Berlin: De Gruyter) pp. 2409-2435 (1996).

              Their operation in Judaea cannot be placed before AD 40 on the evidence available, but it is of course possible that they had been sent there before that, even under the first prefect after the fall of Archelaus.’


              * Aufstieg und Niedergang der römischen Welt (Rise and Fall of the Roman World)

              Given the references you have produced you have obviously found the following, no doubt in an attempt to make yourself look informed.

              https://www.academia.edu/

              Studies In The Historicity of Acts


              Jonathan Burke
              3737 Views12 Pages
              1 File ▾
              Religion,
              Christianity,
              Theology,
              Early Christianity
              Show more ▾
              Current scholarly attitudes towards the historicity of Acts remain mixed, with extremist views expressed at both ends of the spectrum. However attitudes have generally become more positive since the publication of influential works by writers such as Hemer and Hengel, and historians of Rome have renewed their interest in the use of Acts as a valid ...read more


              Now what exactly are you struggling to contend?
              1. Are you actually attempting to claim that there were Roman legions permanently garrisoned in Judaea prior to 70 CE?
              2. Or that there would have been no inherent conflict in an auxiliary Roman officer holding religious beliefs that were in direct opposition to the religious ceremonies and rituals of the Roman auxiliary unit with which he would have had to conform as a serving officer?

              Try and formulate a cogent case in support of whatever points you are endeavouring to maintain.
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                The self proclaimed historian claims that eastern and western Roman empires existed prior to 280CE? On what grounds?
                Where have I actually written any such thing concerning this particular historical period?


                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  It didn't. However, the attempt to cover your mistake with an unrelated reference is not at all surprising.
                  Feel free to find my exact quote where I referred to the empire being divided into two distinct political spheres during the first century CE.

                  I am still awaiting your valid reason [with some attested contemporary evidence] as to why a peasant fisherman in Galilee would be interested in learning the Greek language and Greek philosophical ideas. As well as the provision, by your good-self, for some attested historical contemporary evidence to dismiss as "nonsense" the accepted view that Paul is our earliest source of Christian writing.
                  Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 08-16-2022, 04:52 PM.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                    There was a time when I was a vineyard hand - that part of my life ended many years ago, and I moved on to other things. Strangely - Peter seems to have stopped being a fisherman in Galilee at some point in his life and moved on, circulating in other parts of the Roman empire.



                    In real scholarly circles, there is a wide range of dates proposed for the penning of the gospels. Some as early as 40CE, some as late as the end of the first century. Not so long ago, even the second century was considered a reasonable possibility, but the number of scholars subscribing to the second century proposal is diminishing. I state that the most probable timing for the synoptic gospels, according to may own evaluation, is prior to 60CE. You however, insist on late dates as if they are matters of established fact: they are not. You continue to preach your bare assertions because your claims with regard to other matters lack credibility if the dates are earlier.

                    In previous mention of this matter on TWeb, I have explained my reasons for rejecting late dates. You never bothered to address the points that I raised, and have never bothered to offer anything substantiate your own assertions, beyond appeals to authority. Your favoured authorities don't stand unopposed by credentialled academics.
                    I have a quick digression here, purely as a matter of personal curiosity:

                    -- Do you hold to so-called "Marcan priority"?

                    -- Do you have any views on the old idea that Matthew was originally written in "Hebrew"? (I'm not sure that even really means "Hebrew," or rather the Hebrew dialect of Aramaic.)
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Federalist.

                    Nationalist Christian.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

                    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                    Justice for Matthew Perna!

                    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      This is really a debate that the H_A who said it was foolhardy to think that Galileans would be exposed to much less know some Greek and the H_A who now says that Greek was common in Galile
                      Do you know what the phrase lingua franca means?
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                        Given the references you have produced you have obviously found the following, no doubt in an attempt to make yourself look informed.

                        https://www.academia.edu/

                        Studies In The Historicity of Acts


                        Jonathan Burke
                        3737 Views12 Pages
                        1 File ▾
                        Religion,
                        Christianity,
                        Theology,
                        Early Christianity
                        Show more ▾
                        Current scholarly attitudes towards the historicity of Acts remain mixed, with extremist views expressed at both ends of the spectrum. However attitudes have generally become more positive since the publication of influential works by writers such as Hemer and Hengel, and historians of Rome have renewed their interest in the use of Acts as a valid ...read more


                        Now what exactly are you struggling to contend?
                        1. Are you actually attempting to claim that there were Roman legions permanently garrisoned in Judaea prior to 70 CE?
                        2. Or that there would have been no inherent conflict in an auxiliary Roman officer holding religious beliefs that were in direct opposition to the religious ceremonies and rituals of the Roman auxiliary unit with which he would have had to conform as a serving officer?

                        Try and formulate a cogent case in support of whatever points you are endeavouring to maintain.


                        I have a membership with academia.edu as I have made clear upon occasion (I believe you called it boasting although it was in response for sources) but am sick with being flooded with a dozen emails a day for 2-3 months recommending papers related and not even remotely related to what I access, so I avoid using them unless lately.

                        Earlier today I thought long and hard about accessing a paper regarding the hanging of William Cragh in 1290, who survived being hung twice in a day and the second time left from early morning to late afternoon. He credited intercession by the deceased Thomas de Cantilupe and actually testified as a witness at a papal inquiry for Cantilupe to be canonized. I couldn't find out why his resurrection was rejected as one of the pieces of evidence used to forward the canonization but found a paper specifically on that topic on academia.edu.

                        In the end I wasn't interested enough to download the PDF and have my email flooded again.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          Do you know what the phrase lingua franca means?
                          Something that Latin was, English and French are, but German never was?

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                            I have a quick digression here, purely as a matter of personal curiosity:

                            -- Do you hold to so-called "Marcan priority"?

                            -- Do you have any views on the old idea that Matthew was originally written in "Hebrew"? (I'm not sure that even really means "Hebrew," or rather the Hebrew dialect of Aramaic.)
                            I consider Markan priority to be highly doubtful. Rhetorical training of the times included having a student produce a synopsis of key sections of one or two larger documents, and add a small amount of his own information to the work. Depending on the nature of the source documents, that information could be either wholly imaginary or factual to the best of the student's knowledge (there was a sliding scale). The procedure is still used in some exercises in university studies. Compare that with key arguments advanced in support of Markan priority, and questions arise.

                            The early church considered that Matthew was the first written, which is significant but not conclusive.

                            It seems likely to me that Matthew was the first written, but there is "no hill to die on."
                            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              Where have I actually written any such thing concerning this particular historical period?
                              How quickly we forget.

                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              Plenty of reasons why a person in the first century might choose to learn the trade tongue of the Roman empire.

                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              Greek was the language of the eastern empire not the "Roman empire".


                              1/ Eastern and Western Roman empires were administrative divisions of the Roman empire. People of the time considered the Roman empire to be single. The Eastern and Western Empires are merely convenient designations for historians of these past few centuries.

                              2/ I specified first century Roman Empire, not the administratively subdivided empire of later centuries.

                              3/ I specified "trade tongue," not the official (government and administrative) language.
                              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post


                                I have a membership with academia.edu as I have made clear upon occasion (I believe you called it boasting although it was in response for sources) but am sick with being flooded with a dozen emails a day for 2-3 months recommending papers related and not even remotely related to what I access, so I avoid using them unless lately.

                                Earlier today I thought long and hard about accessing a paper regarding the hanging of William Cragh in 1290, who survived being hung twice in a day and the second time left from early morning to late afternoon. He credited intercession by the deceased Thomas de Cantilupe and actually testified as a witness at a papal inquiry for Cantilupe to be canonized. I couldn't find out why his resurrection was rejected as one of the pieces of evidence used to forward the canonization but found a paper specifically on that topic on academia.edu.

                                In the end I wasn't interested enough to download the PDF and have my email flooded again.
                                Nobody cares about your membership or the issues you have with emails.

                                I asked you to formulate a cogent case for whatever you were struggling to contend here:.


                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                You may notice that I specified both legions and cohorts.

                                Are you familiar with the Cohors II Italica Civium Romanorum? FWIU, they were something established by Julius Caesar and consisted of troops from Italia. The name gives it away ("the cohort called Italian" or "Second Italian band of Roman citizens"). Of course over time the membership did change with most being Syrian, according to Josephus IIRC -- but he could be talking about later.[1]

                                That they were a notable group is likely why Luke goes out of his way to mention it.

                                More importantly. They were most certainly not part of Herod's crew.

                                Typically, scholars in recent years like Alexander J.M. Wedderburn[2], posit that Cornelius was permitted to live in Caesarea away from his unit, or that this is evidence that they were in the region before 40A.D.[3], the other earliest but uncertain mention of them being there, which is the view of Michael Speidel[1] and others.

                                1. In his Roman Army Studies, Michael Speidel notes that "after Titus’ Jewish war the Flavian emperors revamped the Judaean army, and at the same time ”cohors II Italica” seems to have been transferred north into Syria," but maintains "yet for the time of the procurators there is no reason to doubt the accuracy of Acts 10."

                                p. 228 (1992). Oh and volume 2.
                                2. A History of the First Christians, p. 217 (2004).


                                3. D. B. Saddington's Roman Military and Administrative Personnel in the New Testament, in Haase, W. (ed.), ANRW* 26.3 (Part 2, Principat; Berlin: De Gruyter) pp. 2409-2435 (1996).

                                Their operation in Judaea cannot be placed before AD 40 on the evidence available, but it is of course possible that they had been sent there before that, even under the first prefect after the fall of Archelaus.’


                                * Aufstieg und Niedergang der römischen Welt (Rise and Fall of the Roman World)




                                Self evidently you are completely unable to do so as all I have received in reply is prattle.
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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