Plantinga's argument for Design.

[shunyadragon]

One of the keystones of Plantinga's Theory of Warrant and 'Proper Belief' is his argument for the necessity design and against Philosophical Naturalism. The purpose of this thread is to demonstrate that there is no justification for his argument for the necessity of 'design' other then his assertion by belief that this is true.

[quote=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Plantinga]

Evolution and Christianity

In the past, Plantinga has lent support to the intelligent design movement.[50] He was a member of the 'Ad Hoc Origins Committee' that supported Philip E. Johnson's 1991 book Darwin on Trial against palaeontologist Stephen Jay Gould's high-profile scathing review in Scientific American in 1992.[51][52] Plantinga also provided a back-cover endorsement of Johnson's book.[53] He was a Fellow of the (now moribund) pro-intelligent design International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design,[54] and has presented at a number of intelligent design conferences.[55]

The problem is without this keystone his arguments tumble like a house of cards.

[shunyadragon]

Here is where Plantinga's argument fails catastrophically in that other then an assertion of belief there is no justification for the design argument. Basically he asserts what he proposes is true, and there is no legitimate argument either way.

[NormATive]

I spent (wasted) way too much time promoting the Intelligent Design model. As I recall, it was initially a reaction to the US Supreme Court decision in Edwards v Aguillard (1987) that disallowed Creationism in Public Schools. Sort of a Scopes Monkey Trial revisited.

Charles Thaxton's Of Pandas and People (I think that's the title) was republished replacing the words creation and creationism with the phrase intelligent design. I think it was a physicist who coined the term, but I don't know who.

Anyway, when you compare the original book (published prior to the 1987 SC case) to its 1989 revision, it is obvious that a word processor was used to simply insert Intelligent Design at every instance where creation / creationism was used in order to subvert the Court's action.

Plantinga's arguments were embraced to make ID appear more "science-y," I think.

Personally, I don't have an argument with those who wish to view the world as the product of Intelligent Design - so long as we don't try to preach it as a valid scientific theory in public schools. Besides, if you are a Theist, what is wrong with the old, mystical, magical version of creation? And, why would you want to meet Constitutional muster? The Constitution is a very intentionally secular document meant for a population of citizens that includes theists and non-theists alike.

NORM

[shunyadragon]

I spent (wasted) way too much time promoting the Intelligent Design model. As I recall, it was initially a reaction to the US Supreme Court decision in Edwards v Aguillard (1987) that disallowed Creationism in Public Schools. Sort of a Scopes Monkey Trial revisited.

Charles Thaxton's Of Pandas and People (I think that's the title) was republished replacing the words creation and creationism with the phrase intelligent design. I think it was a physicist who coined the term, but I don't know who.

Anyway, when you compare the original book (published prior to the 1987 SC case) to its 1989 revision, it is obvious that a word processor was used to simply insert Intelligent Design at every instance where creation / creationism was used in order to subvert the Court's action.

Plantinga's arguments were embraced to make ID appear more "science-y," I think.

Personally, I don't have an argument with those who wish to view the world as the product of Intelligent Design - so long as we don't try to preach it as a valid scientific theory in public schools. Besides, if you are a Theist, what is wrong with the old, mystical, magical version of creation? And, why would you want to meet Constitutional muster? The Constitution is a very intentionally secular document meant for a population of citizens that includes theists and non-theists alike.

Personally I strongly object to the concept of 'Intelligent Design,' because it tends to portray God as an engineer from an anthropomorphic human perspective.

'God is a Creator not an engineer nor designer.'

[MaxVel]

Plantinga's argument is like a table with four legs. A critical leg to give his argument for Warrant and Proper Function' a theistic basis, is his argument for 'Design' against 'Philosophical Naturalism.' Knock this leg out and his argument can be basically used to justify any belief system including Atheism, and Agnosticism. This is important if he is able to justify that other arguments for diverse belief systems, like atheism, may not be justified by the same argument.

He unfortunately persists in the archaic failed argument using examples of necessity of design in nature when compared to the necessity of design for human technology such as a 747.

The following is from his site 'Thoughtful Christianity.'

Thoughtful Christianity is NOT Alvin Plantinga's site. You're misrepresenting him.

Please start your argument by citing what Plantinga actually says, rather than secondary sources. You get rather tetchy when people 'mis-quote' you, or don't 'accurately' cite your posts in discussions... ... you should do the same for Plantinga.

[37818]

There is intelligent design. Worst case being, nothingness to matter-space-time order, non-life to life, life to intelligences to intelligent design. Even with this, this depicts an order. Nothingness to intelligent design. Unless you are going to argue none of this is intelligent.

[shunyadragon]

Thoughtful Christianity is NOT Alvin Plantinga's site. You're misrepresenting him.

Please start your argument by citing what Plantinga actually says, rather than secondary sources. You get rather tetchy when people 'mis-quote' you, or don't 'accurately' cite your posts in discussions... ... you should do the same for Plantinga.

ALL my references cite Plantinga verbatim, and Thoughtful Christianity is sympathetic to Plantinga. I'm sorry for the minor mistake. If you see the quotes by Plantinga in error, please bring it to my attention. I will cite Plantinga more.

[shunyadragon]

Thoughtful Christianity is NOT Alvin Plantinga's site. You're misrepresenting him.

Please start your argument by citing what Plantinga actually says, rather than secondary sources. You get rather tetchy when people 'mis-quote' you, or don't 'accurately' cite your posts in discussions... ... you should do the same for Plantinga.

Proper Function Account of Warrant by Alvin Plantinga

Abstract

Plantinga says that sufficient warrant, together with true belief, yields knowledge, and he holds that warrant is to be understood primarily in terms of proper function. Plantinga maintains that there is a design plan for various parts of our cognitive apparatus, and that a belief has warrant only when our cognitive equipment to be functioning as it was designed to function. This account implies that the fundamental kind of warrant is that which attaches to beliefs. I argue to the contrary that the fundamental kind of warrant attaches to propositions, and that an implication of this fact is that proper function is not relevant at all to the concept of warrant. [/quote]

[shunyadragon]

There is intelligent design. Worst case being, nothingness to matter-space-time order, non-life to life, life to intelligences to intelligent design. Even with this, this depicts an order. Nothingness to intelligent design. Unless you are going to argue none of this is intelligent.

This is your belief and not coherent argument for 'Intelligent Design.' Intelligence is basically a human quality, that we apply to ourselves when compared to other animals, and if God exists, it is a part of Creation and not likely a limiting attribute of God. There is evidence that there was ever philosophical nothingness. By the present evidence the Natural existence is orderly based on Natural Laws.

[NormATive]

Personally I strongly object to the concept of 'Intelligent Design,' because it tends to portray God as an engineer from an anthropomorphic human perspective. 'God is a Creator not an engineer nor designer.'

As a former Theist, I can see your point. Ironically, as a Theist, I fully embraced ID. I thought it made Christianity more "believable."

NORM

[MaxVel]

ALL my references cite Plantinga verbatim, and Thoughtful Christianity is sympathetic to Plantinga. I'm sorry for the minor mistake. If you see the quotes by Plantinga in error, please bring it to my attention. I will cite Plantinga more.

So far in this thread NONE of your references are direct citations of Plantinga. I suspect you're arguing against a strawman, composed of your muddled misconceptions of what you conceive Plantinga thinks, rather than what he actually says.

[shunyadragon]

So far in this thread NONE of your references are direct citations of Plantinga. I suspect you're arguing against a strawman, composed of your muddled misconceptions of what you conceive Plantinga thinks, rather than what he actually says.

Read my posts, Plantinga's quotes are in "quotation marks" including an abstract of one of his papers. Again, please cite specifically where this is not true.

Please cite Plantinga where anything I wrote and cited that is not true.

[MaxVel]

Read my posts, Plantinga's quotes are in "quotation marks" including an abstract of one of his papers. Again, please cite specifically where this is not true.

Please cite Plantinga where anything I wrote and cited that is not true.

My apologies (in part):

Your first post does cite Plantinga, in response to Michael Ruse saying he was an advocate of intelligent design. Plantinga says that the science alone can't tell us whether evolution was unguided or not.

But the scientific theory of evolution, sensibly enough, says nothing one way or the other about divine guidance. It doesn't say that evolution is divinely guided; it also doesn't say that it isn't.

Your second post contains a two sentence quote of Plantinga, the rest is from a review of a recent book he's put out. In the quote Plantinga rejects the probabilistic argument approach to recognising design.

Your third post contains a few fragmentary quotes, not even one whole sentence, that's all.

Your post #8 has no link, but appears to be someone's summary of Plantinga's thought.


None of the above citations give us any real handle on what Plantinga might have to say about your thesis:

One of the keystones of Plantinga's Theory of Warrant and 'Proper Belief' is his argument for the necessity design and against Philosophical Naturalism.

I'm not really clear exactly what you mean by "...his argument for the necessity design..."

Could you cite for us "Plantinga's Theory of Warrant and Proper Belief", please?

{Since that is what you are arguing against, it would seem to be fairly essential that we know just what that theory is}



AFAIK Plantinga rejects classical foundationalism, and holds that belief in God can be for some people a properly basic belief. (see his article in Philosophy or Religion)

[shunyadragon]

AFAIK Plantinga rejects classical foundationalism, and holds that belief in God can be for some people a properly basic belief. (see his article in Philosophy or Religion)

I have a problem with this selective slippery view of how a properly basic belief applies. If Plantinga '. . . holds that belief in God belief in God can be for some people a properly basic belief,' and not for everyone. You cited a book as a reference, which is something like arguing by web link. Please give a more complete citation of Plantinga and how this fits in context of a 'properly basic belief.'

I will respond more, in particular from Knowledge of God Plantinga spends considerable time writing books, articles, interviews and debates defending his argument for which he apparently claims it is 'reasonable to believe in God even in the absence of argument or evidence, . . . I will to a certain extent focus on the slippery view Plantinga takes in his 'arguments.'

[shunyadragon]

I'm not really clear exactly what you mean by "...his argument for the necessity design..."

Could you cite for us "Plantinga's Theory of Warrant and Proper Belief", please?

{Since that is what you are arguing against, it would seem to be fairly essential that we know just what that theory is}

Lets' start here . . . notice the emphasis on 'design.'

"According to the central and paradigmatic core of our notion of warrant (so I say) a belief B has warrant for you if and only if (1) the cognitive faculties involved in the production of B are functioning properly . . . (2) your cognitive environment is suciently similar to the one for which your cognitive faculties are designed; (3) . . . the design plan governing the production of the belief in question involves, as purpose or function, the production of true beliefs . . .; and (4) the design plan is a good one: that is, there is a high statistical or objective probability that a belief produced in accordance with the relevant segment of the design plan in that sort of environment is true." (Plantinga 1993)