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Plantinga's argument for Design.

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  • Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
    Nope. Still not right. Try again.
    Again, be specific with citations.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
      I addressed Plantinga's stance in post #114. I already told you I'm not interested in discussing ID or the Discovery Institute.
      Funny that you considered yourself informed enough to say this:

      Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
      [Plantinga] mentions that IDers don't believe in YEC (which they don't).
      This is misleading, since the judge said nothing to that effect.

      That being said, two YECs caused the trial, and both groups advocate teaching design and skepticism of evolution's findings.

      Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
      That they believe in evolution (which they do)
      Very few do accept evolution, actually, and the limited evolution IDers *do* concede is largely unintelligible from a scientific perspective. To say that IDers mostly agree that speciation occurs is, therefore, a steaming pile of chimp dung.

      You should stay silent on this matter, I agree.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Really, where? I listed the eight points concerning my argument against Plantinga. Which if any represents a misinterpretation?
        I apologize for saying you misrepresented Plantinga. I was wrong to say that. What I meant is that you approached the argument sloppily by relying on secondary sources, making you vulnerable to those who have actually read the books. Also, this bugs me:

        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Ihave read his works. The reviewers I will cite are well qualified, and better qualified then I, to express their objections. My objections are specific to my knowledge of geology and evolution. Plantinga is clueless about the science of evolution.
        This deference to experts is bad form. Why bring it up in the first place if you don't feel qualified to voice your own objections? And geology is so distantly related to the topic at hand, it makes no sense to bring it up.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
          Does it affect the truth value of his philosophical arguments?
          No, but it certainly doesn't look good. I was just curious if he apologized for writing a rebuttal to a decision he obviously didn't read. =)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by whag View Post
            I apologize for saying you misrepresented Plantinga. I was wrong to say that. What I meant is that you approached the argument sloppily by relying on secondary sources, making you vulnerable to those who have actually read the books. Also, this bugs me:
            The secondary sources were only an introduction with quotes by Plantinga. I have read some books of Plantinga and actually typed in a reference from one of my books. I do find it more 'bugging,' is the word games concerning concepts like 'proper function,' as if Plantinga owns these words and their meaning. Many different religions, philosophies, science, law and non-belief in anything have no problem with what is 'proper function' in the function of human organs and behavior from their perspective.

            Plantinga's whole argument can be summed up as: The belief in God is a foundational proper basic belief innately known by all and in need of no argument. (Insert here - All the noise of the quest for evidence and debate are meaningless). Therefore, God exists and atheism is false. This is the root of Calvinist Reformed Epistemology. Non-believers are just dishonest and self deceiving, and they really know inside that God exists. Also another reason everybody are not all happy camper believers in the world is that human thinking is distorted by the Fall and Sin. From the Irish perspective the Devil built the pubs and bars between their home and the church to distort their thinking.

            Actually for me the problem in getting it together and connecting the dots in debate. I have read a lot, but come from a scientific background, and the straight line thinking from A to Z is different in philosophy, but I am learning. Most apologists I am confronting at present are more blue smoke and mirror obstructionist then seriously interested in dialogue.



            This deference to experts is bad form. Why bring it up in the first place if you don't feel qualified to voice your own objections? And geology is so distantly related to the topic at hand, it makes no sense to bring it up.
            It may be poor wording, but the science of Geology is important hand in hand with the science of Biology to develop the Theory of Evolution. One of the origins of evolution was finding the bones of ancient animals not living today in the layers of rocks. This combined with Darwin's journey and others before him who also found more fossils that were similar to animals living today. They did connected the dots of Geology and Biology with these observations of animals and plants living today, the result is the Theory of Evolution.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-21-2014, 10:13 PM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by whag View Post
              No, but it certainly doesn't look good. I was just curious if he apologized for writing a rebuttal to a decision he obviously didn't read. =)
              More poisoning of the well. Please do show how he "obviously didn't read" the decision.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                Plantinga's whole argument can be summed up as: The belief in God is a foundational proper basic belief innately known by all and in need of no argument. (Insert here - All the noise of the quest for evidence and debate are meaningless). Therefore, God exists and atheism is false. This is the root of Calvinist Reformed Epistemology. Non-believers are just dishonest and self deceiving, and they really know inside that God exists. Also another reason everybody are not all happy camper believers in the world is that human thinking is distorted by the Fall and Sin. From the Irish perspective the Devil built the pubs and bars between their home and the church to distort their thinking.
                Source, please.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                  More poisoning of the well. Please do show how he "obviously didn't read" the decision.
                  He poisoned his own well with that article.

                  Maybe he read the decision but then somehow forgot the main fact of the textbook -- the book that literally said species arrived abruptly, with distinctive features intact.

                  Maybe he read it but forgot two YEC school board members started the whole mess, then lied about how the textbooks were purchased.

                  Maybe he read it but forgot that the tiktaalik fossil and chimp DNA were entered as evidence in the trial, which would be weird if DI/DI agreed that mammals came from the ocean and human beings decended from apes.

                  Here's the link to it in case you change your mind. ;) Then we can hear your informed opinion rather than random indignance signifying nothing.

                  http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dove..._decision.html

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    I have cited this several times and you keep ignoring it. Have you read any of Plantinga's works. You apparently have not read the references I have cited.
                    You can't be serious.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Not from Plantinga that would indicate where I misrepresent Plantinga.
                      Yes I did.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        The secondary sources were only an introduction with quotes by Plantinga. I have read some books of Plantinga and actually typed in a reference from one of my books. I do find it more 'bugging,' is the word games concerning concepts like 'proper function,' as if Plantinga owns these words and their meaning. Many different religions, philosophies, science, law and non-belief in anything have no problem with what is 'proper function' in the function of human organs and behavior from their perspective.

                        Plantinga's whole argument can be summed up as: The belief in God is a foundational proper basic belief innately known by all and in need of no argument. (Insert here - All the noise of the quest for evidence and debate are meaningless). Therefore, God exists and atheism is false. This is the root of Calvinist Reformed Epistemology. Non-believers are just dishonest and self deceiving, and they really know inside that God exists. Also another reason everybody are not all happy camper believers in the world is that human thinking is distorted by the Fall and Sin. From the Irish perspective the Devil built the pubs and bars between their home and the church to distort their thinking.

                        Actually for me the problem in getting it together and connecting the dots in debate. I have read a lot, but come from a scientific background, and the straight line thinking from A to Z is different in philosophy, but I am learning. Most apologists I am confronting at present are more blue smoke and mirror obstructionist then seriously interested in dialogue.





                        It may be poor wording, but the science of Geology is important hand in hand with the science of Biology to develop the Theory of Evolution. One of the origins of evolution was finding the bones of ancient animals not living today in the layers of rocks. This combined with Darwin's journey and others before him who also found more fossils that were similar to animals living today. They did connected the dots of Geology and Biology with these observations of animals and plants living today, the result is the Theory of Evolution.
                        What?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          As far as I know there is not any scientist believes that the brain and all the organs of the human body do not have a functional purpose for the survival of the human species, except maybe the appendix, but that is up to future research. I accept the scientific view that the human brain functions normally as it evolved for the survival of the human species.
                          This is a horribly confused answer, but I'm going to take from it that you do not believe that organs, like the brain, have proper function.

                          You have been playing a word game with me concerning the use of 'proper function,' actually through this whole thread, as defined by Plantinga, and. I do not consider the behavior, intellect, beliefs, emotions, and other human behaviors as subject to the necessity of design to make it function properly. Your playing 'gottcha' and it is meaningless nonsense.
                          I'm not sure you have the mental compacity to comprehend the 'gottcha'' if you even tried.

                          I believe that humans and all life on earth function normally in adaptation to life on earth through evolution. I believe the Theory of Evolution as the knowledge of evolution developed through Methodological Naturalism.
                          Plantinga's evolutionary argument against naturalism has nothing to do with Methodological Naturalism, as repeated to you about a dozen times now.

                          For this thread it is about how Plantinga describes 'proper function.'
                          No it isn't.

                          Not all theologians and philosophers who believe in the Calvinist Reformed Epistemology believe 'proper function' require 'design.'
                          Yes they do.

                          Baha'i doctrine teaches proper function. Its up to you to not accept these doctrines, but if you do not, I dear say, you are not a Baha'i believer, since they are cornerstones of Baha'i belief.

                          Source: Bahá'u'lláh, Writings on the Human Soul

                          It is clear and evident that when the veils that conceal the realities of the manifestations of the Names and Attributes of God, nay of all created things visible or invisible, have been rent asunder, nothing except the Sign of God will remain - a sign which He, Himself, hath placed within these realities. This sign will endure as long as is the wish of the Lord thy God, the Lord of the heavens and of the earth. If such be the blessings conferred on all created things, how superior must be the destiny of the true believer, whose existence and life are to be regarded as the originating purpose of all creation.

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          Source: Bahá’í World Faith—Selected Writings of Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, MODIFICATION OF SPECIES

                          We have now come to the question of the modification of species and of organic development: that is to say, to the point of inquiring whether man’s descent is from the animal.
                          This theory has found credence in the minds of some European philosophers, and it is now very difficult to make its falseness understood, but in the future it will become evident and clear, and the European philosophers will themselves realize its untruth. For verily it is an evident error. When man looks at the beings with a penetrating regard, and attentively examines the condition of existences, and when he sees the state, the organization, and the perfection of the world, he will be convinced that in the possible world there is nothing more wonderful than that which already exists. For all existing beings, terrestrial and celestial, as well as this limitless space and all that is in it, have been created and organized, composed, arranged, and perfected as they ought to be; the universe has no imperfection; so that if all beings became pure intelligence and reflected for ever and ever, it is impossible that they could imagine anything better than that which exists.

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          Source: Bahá’í World Faith—Selected Writings of Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, MAN AND EVOLUTION

                          For man, from the beginning of the embryonic period till he reaches the degree of maturity, goes through different forms and appearances. His aspect, his form, his appearance, and color change; he passes from one form to another, and from one appearance to another. Nevertheless, from the beginning of the embryonic period he is of the species of man; that is to say, an embryo of a man, and not of an animal; but this is not at first apparent, but later it becomes visible and evident. For example, let us suppose that man once resembled the animal, and that now he has progressed and changed; supposing this to be true, it is still not a proof of the change of species; no, as before mentioned, it is merely like the change and alteration of the embryo of man until it reaches the degree of reason and perfection. We will state it more clearly: let us suppose that there was a time when man walked on his hands and feet, or had a tail; this change and alteration is like that of the fśtus in the womb of the mother; although it changes in all ways, and grows and develops until it reaches the perfect form, from the beginning it is a special species. We also see in the vegetable kingdom that the original species of the genus do not change and alter, but the form, color, and bulk will change and alter, or even progress.

                          To recapitulate: as man in the womb of the mother passes from form to form, from shape to shape, changes and develops, and is still the human species from the beginning of the embryonic period—in the same way man, from the beginning of his existence in the matrix of the world, is also a distinct species, that is, man, and has gradually evolved from one form to another. Therefore this change of appearance, this evolution of members, this development and growth, even though we admit the reality of growth and progress, does not prevent the species from being original. Man from the beginning was in this perfect form and composition, and possessed capacity and aptitude for acquiring material and spiritual perfections, and was the manifestation of these words, “We will make man in Our image and likeness.” He has only become more pleasing, more beautiful, and more graceful. Civilization has brought him out of his wild state, just as the wild fruits which are cultivated by a gardener became finer, sweeter, and acquire more freshness and delicacy.
                          The gardeners of the world of humanity are the Prophets of God.

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          Source: The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Shoghi Effendi

                          The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh, whose supreme mission is none other but the achievement of this organic and spiritual unity of the whole body of nations, should, if we be faithful to its implications, be regarded as signalizing through its advent the coming of age of the entire human race. It should be viewed not merely as yet another spiritual revival in the ever-changing fortunes of mankind, not only as a further stage in a chain of progressive Revelations, nor even as the culmination of one of a series of recurrent prophetic cycles, but rather as marking the last and highest stage in the stupendous evolution of man’s collective life on this planet.

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          Believe it or not, these quotes are precisely what Plantinga was talking about when discussing 'proper function'. Metaphysical Naturalists do not believe in a designer, in a creator, or anything of the like. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Baha'i believers, and even many many agnostics and atheists do believe in 'proper function'. Plantinga's Reformed beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with his evolutionary argument against naturalism. He takes into consideration any belief system that believes that organs and organisms have purpose. That organs have proper function.

                          If you continue to hold that you do not believe in proper function of organs or organisms, We're left with the following conclusions.

                          1. You are a liar.
                          2. You are not a Baha'i believer, but rather a metaphysical naturalist.
                          3. You are as thick as a brick, and still do not understand Plantinga's argument.
                          Last edited by OingoBoingo; 03-22-2014, 01:45 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                            Source, please.
                            I have been challenged as to whether I read the references, but the puzzling question still remains as to whether the apologists here even understand the basics of Reformed Epistemology that is the foundation of Plantinga's beliefs.


                            This is straight and simple Calvinist Reformed Epistemology which Plantinga endorses. If your going to understand Plantinga you will need to read and understand his foundation beliefs.

                            I have cited this several times, and apparently you have not been willing to read it, It has a number of citations by Plantanga in the text that describe this in detail.

                            Noetic Effects of Sin by Stephen K. Moromey. 2000

                            Chapter 4 - Plantinga's and Wolterstorff's Reformed Epistemology: particularly section II Reformed Epistemology and John Calvin's Noetic effects of Sin. focus on about pages 77-79, but it would help to read the whole chapter.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
                              <snip>
                              Your mindless rant continues . . .

                              I am the author of this thread, and Plantinga's belief and description of 'proper function' and Warrant is the subject of this thread. Stay on course or your back on ignore.
                              Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-22-2014, 06:19 AM.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                I have cited this several times, and apparently you have not been willing to read it, It has a number of citations by Plantanga in the text that describe this in detail.

                                Again, I have no interest in reading third-party claims about Plantinga. Quote him and not others to make your case.

                                Comment

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