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Synoptics and John: Day of Crucifixion

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  • Originally posted by eider View Post

    Very interesting......... If Palm-day happened to be a Monday, maybe the gospels might align slightly better?
    G-John is supported as being the most accurate about this, and since the authors of Luke and Matthew possibly copied G-Mark's account then the weight of the synoptics' date dissipates.
    Whether Palm-day was a Sunday or a Monday has no bearing on the fact that the synoptic gospels declare the day that Jesus' body was interred to be the Day of Preparation (now called "Passover Eve"), as does John: it was the day that the lamb must be sacrificed, the fourteenth day of the first month. According to the synoptic gospels,
    Before the Last Supper, it was the day that the Passover must be sacrificed, that being the 14th day of the first month.
    When Jesus' body was interred it was the Day of Preparation, also and still being the 14th day of the first month.

    Luke agrees.jpeg
    In any of the known Hebrew calendars, the fourteenth is the day that the Passover must be sacrificed. (PS)

    In the Temple Rite, the 14th (PS) is the Day of Preparation. The 15th is Passover and the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread.
    In the Torah Rite, the 14th (PS) is Passover. The 15th is the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread.
    In the Samaritan Rite, the 14th (PS) is Passover and the first Day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread.


    In each of the rites, the 14th is not a Sabbath, the fifteenth is.
    Which of the three rites do Luke and Mark indicate would have been the Passover rite observed (or matched) by Jesus and his disciples? Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7 for the answer.

    According to the majority consensus, Jesus and his disciples would have observed the Temple's Passover Rite. Why would anyone paying attention to the Biblical record think the same?

    Majority consensus also has it that John says the meal was eaten before the Passover*. The Passover is eaten on the fifteenth, John's record shows that the meal was eaten on the fourteenth. What day do Luke and Mark claim that that Jesus and his disciples ate the Passover? The fifteenth? A Sabbath, and by Mark and Luke's records, the day after Jesus was buried?

    * He says no such thing, but that is a matter of grammar. It makes no practical difference though, because Jesus and his disciples at their Passover meal before the Jews even made their own sacrifices.
    Last edited by tabibito; 03-08-2023, 02:13 AM.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      Whether Palm-day was a Sunday or a Monday has no bearing on the fact that the synoptic gospels declare the day that Jesus' body was interred to be the Day of Preparation (now called "Passover Eve"), as does John: it was the day that the lamb must be sacrificed, the fourteenth day of the first month. According to the synoptic gospels,
      Before the Last Supper, it was the day that the Passover must be sacrificed, that being the 14th day of the first month.
      When Jesus' body was interred it was the Day of Preparation, also and still being the 14th day of the first month.

      Luke agrees.jpeg
      In any of the known Hebrew calendars, the fourteenth is the day that the Passover must be sacrificed. (PS)

      In the Temple Rite, the 14th (PS) is the Day of Preparation. The 15th is Passover and the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread.
      In the Torah Rite, the 14th (PS) is Passover. The 15th is the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread.
      In the Samaritan Rite, the 14th (PS) is Passover and the first Day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread.


      In each of the rites, the 14th is not a Sabbath, the fifteenth is.
      Which of the three rites do Luke and Mark indicate would have been the Passover rite observed (or matched) by Jesus and his disciples? Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7 for the answer.

      According to the majority consensus, Jesus and his disciples would have observed the Temple's Passover Rite. Why would anyone paying attention to the Biblical record think the same?

      Majority consensus also has it that John says the meal was eaten before the Passover*. The Passover is eaten on the fifteenth, John's record shows that the meal was eaten on the fourteenth. What day do Luke and Mark claim that that Jesus and his disciples ate the Passover? The fifteenth? A Sabbath, and by Mark and Luke's records, the day after Jesus was buried?

      * He says no such thing, but that is a matter of grammar. It makes no practical difference though, because Jesus and his disciples at their Passover meal before the Jews even made their own sacrifices.
      Do you remember that mention about Herod Agrippa's kidney count of as passover which included 600,000 kidneys..... (or pairs of kidneys?) ?

      I notice that Josephus mentioned Passover attendances in the millions...... I just wonder how the priests sacrificed all those animals in a day.

      About 661,000 results (0.59 seconds)
      Josephus, a Jewish historian contemporary with the Gospels' authors, writes that on Passover, the population of Jerusalem swelled to more than two million as Jews made pilgrimages to the Temple for the annual celebration of Israel's liberation from slavery in Egypt.19 Apr 2019
      When Jesus Celebrated Passover - WSJ
      ------------------------
      What does Josephus say about Passover?
      According to Josephus there were massive crowds in Jerusalem during Passover, and there were tumults from time to time, as often accompanies crowding. Some pilgrims began arriving a week early so that they could purify themselves, as all were expected to eat and celebrate in a state of ritual purity.
      -------------------------
      Passover - McClintock and Strong Biblical Cyclopedia
      McClintock and Strong Biblical Cyclopedia
      https://www.biblicalcyclopedia.com › passover
      Josephus tells us that there were 3,000,000 Jews at the Passover A.D. 65 (Wars 2:14, 3), and that at the Passover in the reign of Nero there were 2,700,000, ...

      Comment


      • Originally posted by eider View Post


        What does Josephus say about Passover?
        According to Josephus there were massive crowds in Jerusalem during Passover, and there were tumults from time to time, as often accompanies crowding. Some pilgrims began arriving a week early so that they could purify themselves, as all were expected to eat and celebrate in a state of ritual purity.
        -------------------------
        Josephus also records the Passover sacrifice taking place between 3 p.m. and 5 p.m. on the 14th day of the first month. A range of possibilities arises, among them:
        Josephus' account of the number is incorrect
        Josephus report of the time that the sacrifices were conducted is incorrect.
        The Priests has some kind of work-around that allowed for whole-sale sacrifices to be conducted.
        Some combination of two or all of those three conditions occurred.


        It is also possible that Josephus' reference to the time that the Jews conducted their sacrifices might have meant "their own sacrifices," but the moment that option (or anything like it) is deemed a possibility, any possibility that there was a required time for conducting sacrifices goes out the window, and a required time for the meal with it. The only thing underpinning the concept that the Synoptics and John are in conflict about the day of execution is the (unwarranted) belief that there was only one accepted observance of Passover.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • Originally posted by eider View Post

          How about Kashmir? They've even got a tomb in Kashmir.
          I live in a mostly secular district and so (around here) I don't perceive much gravitas about any of these possibilities .
          A tradition that stretch all the way back through the mists of history to the ancient days of ... 1899.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            Never. But H_A's reference seems to be to a somewhat older Solomon Grundy.

            Solomon Grundy
            Born on a Monday,
            Christened on Tuesday,
            Married on Wednesday,
            Took ill on Thursday,
            Grew worse on Friday,
            Died on Saturday,
            Buried on Sunday,
            That was the end,
            Of Solomon Grundy


            A Nursery Rhyme not too overly concerned about the rhyming part.




            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              A tradition that stretch all the way back through the mists of history to the ancient days of ... 1899.
              So about as venerable as the so-called "Garden Tomb" of Christ outside of Jerusalem which Protestants prefer to visit.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                So about as venerable as the so-called "Garden Tomb" of Christ outside of Jerusalem which Protestants prefer to visit.
                At least the tomb itself is old. Too old. Dating back to roughly the 7th or 8th century B.C., and to their credit those in charge don't claim that it's the authentic tomb of Jesus, but rather point to the similarities with the site described in the Bible.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  A Nursery Rhyme not too overly concerned about the rhyming part.


                  Depends on the dialect. The Wiggles pronounce Grundy as "Grunday" - at a guess, the original was in a dialect where that pronunciation was correct.

                  John Donne's "Song" - has an ABAB rhyming pattern through the first four lines of each stanza, but there aren't many dialects where the "B" lines rhyme these days.

                  Go and catch a falling star,
                  Get with child a mandrake root,
                  Tell me where all past years are,
                  Or who cleft the devil's foot, (foot sounds as root)

                  Last edited by tabibito; 03-08-2023, 11:11 AM.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                    Depends on the dialect. The Wiggles pronounce Grundy as "Grunday" - at a guess, the original was in a dialect where that pronunciation was correct.

                    John Donne's "Song" - has an ABAB rhyming pattern through the first four lines of each stanza, but there aren't many dialects where the "B" lines rhyme these days.

                    Go and catch a falling star,
                    Get with child a mandrake root,
                    Tell me where all past years are,
                    Or who cleft the devil's foot, (foot sounds as root)
                    Actually, root sounds as foot. I have a recording of a children's song where it's pronounced that way.

                    And there are some dialects where "Monday" is pronounced "Mundy"....
                    Last edited by One Bad Pig; 03-08-2023, 01:09 PM.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Actually, root sounds as foot. I have a recording of a children's song where it's pronounced that way.
                      As someone else has commented elsewhere, "I am surprised that I am surprised." I have encountered dialects where foot sounds as root (and even fyoot), but not the reverse.

                      And there are some dialects where "Monday" is pronounced "Mundy"....
                      Yup. Lived in an area where that happened.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        A tradition that stretch all the way back through the mists of history to the ancient days of ... 1899.
                        1899? The Kashmir thing?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by eider View Post

                          1899? The Kashmir thing?
                          The founder of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama'at (an Islamic messianic movement which originated in northeastern India), Mirzā Ghulām Ahmad, declared in 1899 that a shrine there was actually Jesus' tomb. Of course there are numerous problems with that claim.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            The founder of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama'at (an Islamic messianic movement which originated in northeastern India), Mirzā Ghulām Ahmad, declared in 1899 that a shrine there was actually Jesus' tomb. Of course there are numerous problems with that claim.
                            This tradition seems to go back aways.

                            Lots of interest....... lots of believers, it seems:-
                            1. ‘Tomb of Jesus’ In Kashmir–Roza Bal Shrine - India …


                              https://www.indiaheritagewalks.org/b...mir-roz…
                              WebSome experts claim that Jesus came to Kashmir during the reign of Raja Gopadatta (49-109 AD). They claim that he must have chosen Kashmir because Kashmiris are considered as one among the ten ‘missing tribes’ …


                            ................................Wow! Experts.........

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by eider View Post

                              This tradition seems to go back aways.

                              ................................Wow! Experts.........
                              The tomb as a sacred site does, anyway.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by eider View Post

                                This tradition seems to go back aways.

                                Lots of interest....... lots of believers, it seems:-
                                1. ‘Tomb of Jesus’ In Kashmir–Roza Bal Shrine - India …


                                  https://www.indiaheritagewalks.org/b...mir-roz…
                                  WebSome experts claim that Jesus came to Kashmir during the reign of Raja Gopadatta (49-109 AD). They claim that he must have chosen Kashmir because Kashmiris are considered as one among the ten ‘missing tribes’ …


                                ................................Wow! Experts.........
                                Define "lots."

                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                The tomb as a sacred site does, anyway.
                                Not that old

                                Buddhist and Hindu period

                                There is no record of the shrine during Kashmir's Buddhist period, nor during the Kashmir Sultanate (1346–1586) when many Buddhist temples were converted into mosques, such as the Shankaracharya Temple or "Throne of Solomon."[15]

                                Muhammad Dedamari, 1747[edit]

                                The shrine is first mentioned in the Waqi'at-i-Kashmir (Story of Kashmir, published 1747), also known as the Tarikh Azami (History by Azam)[16] by the Khwaja Muhammad Azam Didamari, a local Srinagar Sufi writer. Muhammed Azam states that the tomb is of a foreign prophet and prince, Yuzasuf, or in modern local Kashimiri transcription Youza Asouph. The name may derive from the Urdu "Yuzasaf" in the legend of Balauhar and Yuzasaf, Yuzasaf being a name for Gautama Buddha.[17] Yuzasaf occurs as a spelling in the Rasail Ikhwan al-Safa of the Brethren of Purity and other sources.[18]David Marshall Lang (1960) notes that the connection of the Buddhist Yuzasaf with Kashmir in part results from a printing error in the Bombay Arabic edition referencing the legend of the Wisdom of Balahvar which makes its hero prince Yuzasaf die in "Kashmir" (Arabic: كشمير) by confusion with Kushinara (Pali: كوشينر), the traditional place of the original Buddha's death.[19][20]




                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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