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Synoptics and John: Day of Crucifixion

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  • Originally posted by eider View Post
    A one hundred pound timber would finish me in about ten yards, if that! A fit man could carry it a hundred yards, but a whole pillar and beam?

    Another question is 'how high off the ground would a crucified man's feet be'? So many pictures show Jesus and the convicts several feet off the ground, quite possible to display a crucifixion to more people, but more difficult for the crucifixion's team.

    How about the JW belief that Jesus and the convicts were nailed/lashed to stakes?
    You can usually drag something that's heavier than you can carry.

    As for height... depends. Do they want him up high for everyone nearby to see as an abject lesson?

    IIRC, it was Josephus who wrote that the Romans crucified Jewish prisoners in all sorts of different positions. Possibly for "entertainment."



    ETA: While the Gospels don't say how Jesus was affixed to the cross John does mention wounds on Jesus' hands. Both methods were used as the discovery of the remains of a man who was crucified in the 1st century A.D. near Jerusalem attests.
    Last edited by rogue06; 03-06-2023, 11:29 AM.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • I just added my assessment of the day of Christ's execution to Prof. Colin Humphrey's write-up, which dates to 2011, so maybe nothing will come of it, but it will be interesting to see if something does.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        They do - the count of days "since" the crucifixion, transferred from the left hand column.


        OK, thanks, that clears up my confusion.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          As though a tradition can have no basis in fact, or can be questioned simply because it is a tradition? What a concept.
          The people of Cornwall have a tradition that Jesus came there with Joseph of A and founded the first church...... just a tradition, of course.

          Could Jesus have arrived in Bethany before the Saturday (Sabbath) prior to his execution? The answer is no.
          Interment procedures should not be interrupted. If they are interrupted, by (say) the beginning of a Sabbath, they will be completed at the earliest possible time. Arrival in Bethany on any earlier day would put the Day of Preparation (the day of execution) on Wednesday or earlier. The Passover Sabbath would then be on a Thursday, with Friday as a (more or less) ordinary day available for completion of the interment. The women would not have waited til the Sunday to complete the interment procedures. That leaves arrival in Bethany on Saturday or Sunday.


          Could Jesus have arrived in Bethany on the Sunday?[indent]That would make the Day of Preparation a Friday, with Passover falling on the day of the weekly Sabbath: so far, no real divergence from what can happen. In the temple rite, conducting the sacrifice an hour earlier is the only difference it would make. However,
          A/ Friday would be 2 days, not 3 days, prior to the resurrection.
          B/ While a Friday execution would fulfil the requirement for 3 days, it would not fulfil the requirement for the stipulated 3 days and 3 nights.

          It is said that the count of days between, inclusively, Palm Sunday and execution on Friday leaves one day in Holy Week entirely unaccounted for. I can believe it (simply because the numbers add up to an execution one day before Friday) - but I haven't actually run an exhaustive check for myself.

          Argument that "the third day" without a preposition means an inclusive count. Without a preposition, the third day may mean either the third day of, or the third day after; the interpretation relies on context. Examples: The festival starts on Sunday: the third day (of the festival) is Tuesday. The festival ends on Sunday: the third day (since the festival) is Wednesday. In Koine Greek, it is not necessary to state the "of" or the "since," nor is stating it prohibited.

          Jesus' arrival in Bethany 6 days before his execution, and his resurrection on Sunday, 3 days after his execution: the numbers only work if Palm Sunday actually was a Sunday, and the execution was conducted on a Thursday. No argument in contradiction (to the best of my knowledge) addresses that issue.
          .... or if Jesus was executed on a Friday and had arrived in Jerusalem on a Monday.
          So we don't know, I guess.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            You can usually drag something that's heavier than you can carry.

            As for height... depends. Do they want him up high for everyone nearby to see as an abject lesson?

            IIRC, it was Josephus who wrote that the Romans crucified Jewish prisoners in all sorts of different positions. Possibly for "entertainment."

            ETA: While the Gospels don't say how Jesus was affixed to the cross John does mention wounds on Jesus' hands. Both methods were used as the discovery of the remains of a man who was crucified in the 1st century A.D. near Jerusalem attests.
            As you say, a higher cross would be a more effective deterrent if a large crowd was watching.
            And I once read that the Sepphoris brigands captured by Varis' troops after the siege of circa 3BC numbered about 2000, and after they had been made to tear down the old city they were all crucified, and that the soldiers became so bored with the crucifixion labour that they lashed and nailed up convicts in all manner of humorous poses.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by eider View Post
              The people of Cornwall have a tradition that Jesus came there with Joseph of A and founded the first church...... just a tradition, of course.
              The approximate start date of a tradition can be informative.


              .... or if Jesus was executed on a Friday and had arrived in Jerusalem on a Monday.
              Palm Sunday actually being a Monday would resolve the question of the missing Wednesday, true enough. Later than Monday is not in the equation, unless the people who were at pains to avoid having people hanging around on crosses on the Sabbath got a crucifixion conducted on a Sabbath (with the stay in the tomb being merely overnight).

              So we don't know, I guess.
              I'm satisfied with the "Sunday was three days after the crucifixion" making the crucifixion a Thursday, with arrival in Bethany 6 days before the Passover Sabbath making the day of arrival a Saturday. Palm Sunday would then actually have been a Sunday. But the simple and logical won't appeal to a good many, so ... working on it.

              One thing is beyond doubt. Palm Sunday and Crucifixion on Friday is not possible. One of them is wrong.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • Originally posted by eider View Post
                The people of Cornwall have a tradition that Jesus came there with Joseph of A and founded the first church...... just a tradition, of course.
                All of Cornwell?

                Of course a tradition that came about say a thousand years after the time it supposedly happened doesn't have the same gravitas as one that originated from the same time.


                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by eider View Post
                  The people of Cornwall have a tradition that Jesus came there with Joseph of A and founded the first church...... just a tradition, of course.
                  Do not forget Glastonbury!


                  https://theconversation.com/glastonb...stianity-93805

                  In the 19th century, a popular West Country folk tale claimed that Christ had visited Britain with his great uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, in pursuit of the tin trade. The myth that Jesus visited Glastonbury remains significant for many English Christians today and is immortalised in the country’s unofficial anthem, Sir Hubert Parry’s hymn, Jerusalem, based on William Blake’s 1804 poem.


                  Nor the so-called Holy Thorn.





                  Originally posted by eider View Post
                  .... or if Jesus was executed on a Friday and had arrived in Jerusalem on a Monday.
                  So we don't know, I guess.
                  All this is beginning to resemble the rhyme about Solomon Grundy!
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                    Do not forget Glastonbury!


                    https://theconversation.com/glastonb...stianity-93805

                    In the 19th century, a popular West Country folk tale claimed that Christ had visited Britain with his great uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, in pursuit of the tin trade. The myth that Jesus visited Glastonbury remains significant for many English Christians today and is immortalised in the country’s unofficial anthem, Sir Hubert Parry’s hymn, Jerusalem, based on William Blake’s 1804 poem.


                    Nor the so-called Holy Thorn.





                    All this is beginning to resemble the rhyme about Solomon Grundy!
                    Never heard of Solomon Grundy until now - Jennifer Tompkins though ...
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      Never heard of Solomon Grundy until now - Jennifer Tompkins though ...
                      What, you never read Superman or Batman comics?
                      grundy.jpg
                      Last edited by Faber; 03-07-2023, 02:50 PM.
                      When I Survey....

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Faber View Post

                        What, you never read Superman or Batman comics?
                        Never. But H_A's reference seems to be to a somewhat older Solomon Grundy.

                        Solomon Grundy
                        Born on a Monday,
                        Christened on Tuesday,
                        Married on Wednesday,
                        Took ill on Thursday,
                        Grew worse on Friday,
                        Died on Saturday,
                        Buried on Sunday,
                        That was the end,
                        Of Solomon Grundy



                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          One thing is beyond doubt. Palm Sunday and Crucifixion on Friday is not possible. One of them is wrong.
                          Very interesting......... If Palm-day happened to be a Monday, maybe the gospels might align slightly better?
                          G-John is supported as being the most accurate about this, and since the authors of Luke and Matthew possibly copied G-Mark's account then the weight of the synoptics' date dissipates.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            All of Cornwell?

                            Of course a tradition that came about say a thousand years after the time it supposedly happened doesn't have the same gravitas as one that originated from the same time.
                            How about Kashmir? They've even got a tomb in Kashmir.
                            I live in a mostly secular district and so (around here) I don't perceive much gravitas about any of these possibilities .

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              Do not forget Glastonbury!


                              https://theconversation.com/glastonb...stianity-93805

                              In the 19th century, a popular West Country folk tale claimed that Christ had visited Britain with his great uncle, Joseph of Arimathea, in pursuit of the tin trade. The myth that Jesus visited Glastonbury remains significant for many English Christians today and is immortalised in the country’s unofficial anthem, Sir Hubert Parry’s hymn, Jerusalem, based on William Blake’s 1804 poem.


                              Nor the so-called Holy Thorn.





                              All this is beginning to resemble the rhyme about Solomon Grundy!
                              I do wish that 'Jerusalem' was our anthem..... sung by football spectators (the mob!!! ) at an FA cup final at Wembley....... oh yes. But 'God save our gracious king......'?? Oh dear, I can't sing that.

                              And yes, Glastonbury is claimed (by some) as the first church, founded by Jesus.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Faber View Post

                                What, you never read Superman or Batman comics?
                                grundy.jpg
                                Yep......... He's an Arsenal supporter....... definitely. They all look and behave like that when they lose.

                                Comment

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