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Synoptics and John: Day of Crucifixion

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  • #31
    Conversing with Hyper_Alexander reminds of me of that Calvin and Hobbes comic strip.

    Calvin: "A man is walking his dog and tells the dog, 'Heel!' The dog says, 'It takes one to know one.' Ha ha ha!"
    Hobbes: ...
    Calvin: "What's the matter with you! Don't you get it?"
    Hobbes: "I'm trying to figure out how the dog learned to talk."
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      Back to ad hominems so soon.

      Simple facts - the day that the Passover must be sacrificed is the fourteenth of Nisan, aka the day of Preparation. The lamb is sacrificed, the meal is eaten, Jesus is buried - all on the day that the lamb must be sacrificed. The only way that is possible is if the sacrifice is conducted immediately after day break (which is when Samaritan Jews still conduct the sacrifice.)
      In John the event is placed "before the feast of Passover" but suggests it happened at the start of 14 Nissan thereby implying this was not a Passover meal. However, we have nothing explicit.

      The Synoptics describe it as a Passover meal. This included the Passover lamb, which after it had been ritually slaughtered at the temple would be eaten after sunset on the start of 15 Nissan - now known in contemporary Judaism as the Seder meal. The Synoptics also introduce the idea of the Eucharist which is implicitly linked to the Passover in Mark 14.12-16; Matthew 26.17-19 and explicitly in Luke 22.15 "He said to them, I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer". My emphasis.

      And while the three Synoptics are not in complete agreement on the details of that ceremony Luke does have Jesus saying at 22.19 "Do this in remembrance of me" . In this the author would appear to following Paul "and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body that is for[f] you. Do this in remembrance of me.” [ 1 Corinthians 11.24]


      According to a rabbi here:

      https://aish.com/passover-14th-or-15th/

      Thank you for your interesting question. You are right that the Torah makes mention of a holiday on the 14th of Nisan. But interestingly, that is a separate holiday from Passover, which begins on the 15th. If you read Leviticus 23:5-6 carefully, you will see that there are actually two holidays at this time:

      (a) “Pesach” – the slaughtering and eating of the paschal lamb (or goat) which begins the afternoon of the 14th with its slaughtering and continues that night with its consumption.

      (b) “The Holiday of Matzot” – the seven day feast we refer to as Passover, which begins the night of the 15th.

      Today, without our holy Temple, we do not bring the Passover offering. Thus, the only holiday relevant to us is Passover itself which begins on the 15th. Even so, the 14th is still considered a minor holiday – mainly in commemoration of the ancient holiday, where many have the custom not to work (beyond Passover preparations) and there is likewise a custom to study the laws of the Passover offering (Shulchan Aruch O.C. 46:8:1-3, Mishna Berurah 1).

      Another relevant point is that although in most areas of Jewish law, a “day” begins the evening before, for Temple service the night follows the day. This is as the Temple offerings of the day would often be burned or consumed the night after (and many would become invalid the next day). Thus, the holiday of "Pesach" actually began the day of the 14th, ending the night of the 15th
      .

      And another rabbi here:https://www.hebcal.com/home/1247/pes...an-vs-the-14th

      First of all, it’s helpful to know and understand the Hebrew and to know that in ancient days there were two sacrifices i.e. two holidays that were conjoined into one in later days. There was the Pascal sacrifice/Pascal holiday which was known as the “Pesach” or “passover.” This was an agricultural holiday celebrating springtime and the new lambs of the flock and it apparently preceded the Exodus from Egypt by many, many years. That sacrifice/holiday was on the 14th of Nisan. And it’s the term that in later days came to be used in Judaism for what was in ancient times a separate sacrifice/holiday celebrated a day later…the 15th of Nisan and the start of a 7 day festival during which matza was eaten. The holiday celebrating the Exodus is (in the Bible) usually called Chag HaMatzot or Festival of Matzah. So a more precise translation of verses 16 and 17 would read:

      וּבַחֹ֣דֶשׁ הָרִאשׁ֗וֹן בְּאַרְבָּעָ֥ה עָשָׂ֛ר י֖וֹם לַחֹ֑דֶשׁ פֶּ֖סַח לַיהוָֽה׃
      16) In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, there shall be a passover (pesach) sacrifice to the Lord

      וּבַחֲמִשָּׁ֨ה עָשָׂ֥ר י֛וֹם לַחֹ֥דֶשׁ הַזֶּ֖ה חָ֑ג שִׁבְעַ֣ת יָמִ֔ים מַצּ֖וֹת יֵאָכֵֽל׃
      17) and on the fifteenth day of that month a festival (chag). Unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days.

      To add just a little, I quote from the Jewish Publication Society’s commentary on the Book of Numbers on page 243:
      “The day of the paschal offering and the seven-day Festival of Unleavened Bread are discrete holidays. Yet the fact that the paschal offering is mentioned even though it is a private sacrifice (see Exodus 12:1-11) –– and hence no description is given –– indicates that the two festivals are already fused.”

      In later centuries, the two sacrifices were both made on the 14th of Nisan. The “pesach”/paschal offering earlier in the day than the offering for the Chag HaMatzot since that was the lamb that was to be eaten at the Seder commemorating the Exodus and it had to be slaughtered and roasted prior to sundown of the 15th so that it could be consumed during the Seder.

      And here:https://www.chabad.org/holidays/pass...-Nissan-14.htm

      Welcome home! How inspiring that you are reintroducing Judaism to your life and the life of your family.

      In response to your question, you’re correct that the Torah refers to Passover on the 14th. But it also refers to the “Festival of Matzot” on the 15th. Why the discrepancy? Let’s examine these verses from Leviticus 23:
      • “In the first month, on the 14th of the month, in the afternoon, the Passover to the L‑rd.”1
      • “And on the 15th day of that month is the Festival of Matzahs to the L‑rd; you shall eat matzahs for a seven-day period.”2

      So what is this “Passover” on the 14th? It is not the Festival of Matzahs, since that only begins that evening (since the Jewish days begin at nightfall). Rather, it is the Passover offering, which was slaughtered on the 14th and eaten that night—the 15th—together with matzah at the onset of the Festival of Matzahs.



      As previously stated the gospel accounts differ as to when the event was supposed to occur, before Passover in John [generally considered more likely] or on the festival of Passover in the Synoptics.



      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

        In John the event is placed "before the feast of Passover" but suggests it happened at the start of 14 Nissan thereby implying this was not a Passover meal.
        I already stated that the synoptic gospels show that the meal was eaten on the night of the 14th - that is to say, at the start of the 14th. There is however, no implication that it was not a Passover meal. Not all of the Hebrew celebrations of Passover were held at the same time. John is very careful in his coverage of each of the Passovers that he mentions, to state that they were Passover festivals of the Jews. He is also careful to point out that the Day of Preparation of the Jews is the day when Christ was executed. The careful delineation is reflected in a statement like "I attended an Eastern Church celebration of Easter" - it is the kind of comment that is made when the audience is not expected to know which particular version of the event is referred to.

        The Synoptics describe it as a Passover meal. This included the Passover lamb, which after it had been ritually slaughtered at the temple would be eaten after sunset on the start of 15 Nissan - now known in contemporary Judaism as the Seder meal. The Synoptics also introduce the idea of the Eucharist which is implicitly linked to the Passover in Mark 14.12-16; Matthew 26.17-19 and explicitly in Luke 22.15 "He said to them, I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer". My emphasis.
        All of which underscores my earlier point that ambiguous statements should be interpreted in the light of explicit statements. John states explicitly that Jesus was buried on the day before the Sabbath, as do the Synoptic gospels' authors. John states that Jesus was buried at the close of the day of Preparation - so do the synoptic gospels' authors.

        According to a rabbi here:

        https://aish.com/passover-14th-or-15th/

        the Torah makes mention of a holiday on the 14th of Nisan. But interestingly, that is a separate holiday from Passover, which begins on the 15th. If you read Leviticus 23:5-6 carefully, you will see that there are actually two holidays at this time:


        Indeed - the Torah does make mention of a holiday on the 14th of Nisan, which is called in the Torah "Passover," with the festival of unleavened bread commencing on the 15th. The fifteenth incidentally, is a (deutero) Sabbath. John calls it a high day.

        Leviticus 23:5 ‘In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD’S Passover. 6 ‘Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD

        Number 9:2 “Now, let the sons of Israel observe the Passover at its appointed time. 3 “On the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight, you shall observe it at its appointed time; you shall observe it according to all its statutes and according to all its ordinances.”


        Note those emphasised "all"s - the whole of the Passover rite is to be performed on the fourteenth. No mention of any part of the Passover being conducted on the fifteenth even hinted at. That is the way that the Samaritan Jews interpret the reading even today.

        Numbers 28:16 Then on the fourteenth day of the first month shall be the LORD’S Passover. 17 ‘On the fifteenth day of this month shall be a feast, unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days.



        (a) “Pesach” – the slaughtering and eating of the paschal lamb (or goat) which begins the afternoon of the 14th with its slaughtering and continues that night with its consumption.

        (b) “The Holiday of Matzot” – the seven day feast we refer to as Passover, which begins the night of the 15th.
        The difference between the observance of Passover between the Torah Rite and the Temple Rite is perfectly clear. In the temple rite, the seven day festival of Passover begins on the fifteenth. In the Torah rite, the single day celebration of Passover is conducted on the fourteenth, followed by the seven day festival of unleavened bread.

        And another rabbi here:https://www.hebcal.com/home/1247/pes...an-vs-the-14th

        [I]First of all, it’s helpful to know and understand the Hebrew and to know that in ancient days there were two sacrifices i.e. two holidays that were conjoined into one in later days. There was the Pascal sacrifice/Pascal holiday which was known as the “Pesach” or “passover.”This was an agricultural holiday celebrating springtime and the new lambs of the flock and it apparently preceded the Exodus from Egypt by many, many years. That sacrifice/holiday was on the 14th of Nisan. And it’s the term that in later days came to be used in Judaism for what was in ancient times a separate sacrifice/holiday celebrated a day later…the 15th of Nisan and the start of a 7 day festival during which matza was eaten. The holiday celebrating the Exodus is (in the Bible) usually called Chag HaMatzot or Festival of Matzah. So a more precise translation of verses 16 and 17 would read:
        So this Rabbi confirms what I have been saying - even to citing Numbers 28:16-17

        16) In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, there shall be a passover (pesach) sacrifice to the Lord 17) and on the fifteenth day of that month a festival (chag). Unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days.
        In later centuries, the two sacrifices were both made on the 14th of Nisan. The “pesach”/paschal offering earlier in the day than the offering for the Chag HaMatzot since that was the lamb that was to be eaten at the Seder commemorating the Exodus and it had to be slaughtered and roasted prior to sundown of the 15th so that it could be consumed during the Seder.

        And here:https://www.chabad.org/holidays/pass...-Nissan-14.htm

        Welcome home! How inspiring that you are reintroducing Judaism to your life and the life of your family.

        In response to your question, you’re correct that the Torah refers to Passover on the 14th. But it also refers to the “Festival of Matzot” on the 15th. Why the discrepancy? Let’s examine these verses from Leviticus 23:
        • “In the first month, on the 14th of the month, in the afternoon, the Passover to the L‑rd.”1
        • “And on the 15th day of that month is the Festival of Matzahs to the L‑rd; you shall eat matzahs for a seven-day period.”2

        So what is this “Passover” on the 14th? It is not the Festival of Matzahs, since that only begins that evening (since the Jewish days begin at nightfall). Rather, it is the Passover offering, which was slaughtered on the 14th and eaten that night—the 15th—together with matzah at the onset of the Festival of Matzahs.[/box]
        So, your sources confirm that a Passover held in conformity with the Temple rite would span the fourteenth and fifteenth, the sacrifice being conducted on the fourteenth and the meal being eaten on the fifteenth, while the Torah rite would be held on the evening and night of the fourteenth: the procedure that continues today for the Samaritan Jews and for Beta Israel. Until the twentieth century, Beta Israel had had no contact with other Hebrews since before the construction of the second temple. All up, there is no reason to believe that Jesus would have adopted the Temple rite - the gospels show that he hadn't.





        Last edited by tabibito; 05-13-2022, 10:56 AM.
        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          I already stated that the synoptic gospels show that the meal was eaten on the night of the 14th - that is to say, at the start of the 14th.
          My emphasis. They don't. The three Synoptics make it quite clear that the last meal was a Seder

          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          There is however, no implication that it was not a Passover meal.
          "(a) “Pesach” – the slaughtering and eating of the paschal lamb (or goat) which begins the afternoon of the 14th with its slaughtering and continues that night with its consumption."

          If the meal was eaten at the start of the 14th as you contend the lamb would have not yet been slaughtered. Hence it could not have been a Passover meal.

          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Not all of the Hebrew celebrations of Passover were held at the same time. John is very careful in his coverage of each of the Passovers that he mentions, to state that they were Passover festivals of the Jews. He is also careful to point out that the Day of Preparation of the Jews is the day when Christ was executed. The careful delineation is reflected in a statement like "I attended an Eastern Church celebration of Easter" - it is the kind of comment that is made when the audience is not expected to know which particular version of the event is referred to.



          All of which underscores my earlier point that ambiguous statements should be interpreted in the light of explicit statements. John states explicitly that Jesus was buried on the day before the Sabbath, as do the Synoptic gospels' authors. John states that Jesus was buried at the close of the day of Preparation - so do the synoptic gospels' authors.

          According to a rabbi here:

          https://aish.com/passover-14th-or-15th/

          the Torah makes mention of a holiday on the 14th of Nisan. But interestingly, that is a separate holiday from Passover, which begins on the 15th. If you read Leviticus 23:5-6 carefully, you will see that there are actually two holidays at this time:


          Indeed - the Torah does make mention of a holiday on the 14th of Nisan, which is called in the Torah "Passover," with the festival of unleavened bread commencing on the 15th.

          Leviticus 23:5 ‘In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD’S Passover. 6 ‘Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD

          Number 9:2 “Now, let the sons of Israel observe the Passover at its appointed time. 3 “On the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight, you shall observe it at its appointed time; you shall observe it according to all its statutes and according to all its ordinances.”


          Note those emphasised "all"s - the whole of the Passover rite is to be performed on the fourteenth. No mention of any part of the Passover being conducted on the fifteenth even hinted at. That is the way that the Samaritan Jews interpret the reading even today.

          Numbers 28:16 Then on the fourteenth day of the first month shall be the LORD’S Passover. 17 ‘On the fifteenth day of this month shall be a feast, unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days.





          The difference between the observance of Passover between the Torah Rite and the Temple Rite is perfectly clear. In the temple rite, the seven day festival of Passover begins on the fifteenth. In the Torah rite, the single day celebration of Passover is conducted on the fourteenth, followed by the seven day festival of unleavened bread.



          So this Rabbi confirms what I have been saying - even to citing Numbers 28:16-17





          So, your sources confirm that a Passover held in conformity with the Temple rite would span the fourteenth and fifteenth, the sacrifice being conducted on the fourteenth and the meal being eaten on the fifteenth, while the Torah rite would be held on the evening and night of the fourteenth: the procedure that continues today for the Samaritan Jews and for Beta Israel. Until the twentieth century, Beta Israel had had no contact with other Hebrews since before the construction of the second temple. All up, there is no reason to believe that Jesus would have adopted the Temple rite - the gospels show that he hadn't.





          "Rather, it is the Passover offering, which was slaughtered on the 14th and eaten that night—the 15th—together with matzah at the onset of the Festival of Matzahs."

          I will take what rabbis have written over the contentions of a pseudonymous contributor to a Christian discussion board who is trying to allege that these four gospel accounts do not contradict one another and are therefore in harmony, when they self-evidently are not.
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            My emphasis. They don't. The three Synoptics make it quite clear that the last meal was a Seder

            "(a) “Pesach” – the slaughtering and eating of the paschal lamb (or goat) which begins the afternoon of the 14th with its slaughtering and continues that night with its consumption."

            If the meal was eaten at the start of the 14th as you contend the lamb would have not yet been slaughtered. Hence it could not have been a Passover meal.
            In the first century calendar, the day starts at sunset. If the lamb is slaughtered at the start of the day, the night will be about an hour later, and it will be that night.



            "Rather, it is the Passover offering, which was slaughtered on the 14th and eaten that night—the 15th—together with matzah at the onset of the Festival of Matzahs."

            I will take what rabbis have written over the contentions of a pseudonymous contributor to a Christian discussion board who is trying to allege that these four gospel accounts do not contradict one another and are therefore in harmony, when they self-evidently are not.
            Ah - more petulant ad hominems.

            If you were to take the Rabbis seriously, you would note that they had stated that the Torah stipulates the fourteenth as the date of Passover and that variations were introduced later.

            However, the point here is what is recorded in the gospels themselves.

            The synoptics show that after the meal, and after the crucifixion, it was still the day of preparation - which is what John states.
            Last edited by tabibito; 05-13-2022, 11:37 AM.
            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

            Comment


            • #36
              LUKE’S AGREEMENT WITH JOHN
              JOHN LUKE
              Before the Meal The day when the Passover must be sacrificed. (Nisan 14) 22:7
              Night Meal, Arrest, Inquisition
              Day Trials, Sentence, Crucifixion
              Death (at the 9th hour: Luke Only) 19:30 23:46
              After Jesus dies Jesus is interred 19:42 23:53
              The Day of Preparation (Nisan 14) 19:42 23:54



              Luke's record starts by identifying the day, and concludes by identifying the day. It is therefore patently obvious that in Luke's account, Jesus and the disciples eat the meal before the Jews conduct their sacrifice of the Passover.
              Last edited by tabibito; 05-13-2022, 02:39 PM.
              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

              Comment


              • #37



                There - that's an outline simple enough that even the most eminent theologian should be able to understand it.
                Last edited by tabibito; 05-14-2022, 01:16 AM.
                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                Comment


                • #38
                  The Majority Consensus claim that John nominates the day of crucifixion one day before the day nominated by the synoptic gospels is that "the day the Passover must be sacrificed" and "the Day of Preparation" (Nisan 14 by either name), later termed "Passover Eve," is one day before Nisan 15. That day is a Sabbath, whether it falls on a Saturday or any other day of the week. If the Synoptic gospels state that Jesus was crucified one day later than the day John nominates, Jesus is crucified on a Sabbath (Nisan 15). Not only do the Jews object to having bodies hanging around on crosses on the Sabbath, but the synoptic gospels are uniform in concurring with John, that Jesus was buried on the Day of Preparation (Nisan 14)*. According to Majority Consensus then, the authors of the synoptic gospels say that Jesus' dead body was buried on the day before he was crucified.

                  Hanko.jpg

                  (Encyclopaedia of the Bible) John ... placed the Last Supper in advance of the Passover feast, whereas the crucifixion was assigned to the “day of Preparation of the Passover” (John 19:14). As with the sabbath, the day which preceded the celebration of the Passover was a time of intensive preparation, and at the turn of the Christian era had become known as the “Passover eve.”
                  Attached Files
                  1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                  Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                  "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                  Comment

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