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Early Christian extreme asceticism

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  • #46
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Bluntly, given some of your other posts, and how you tend to link sex and pain, me thinks thou art projecting.
    I recommend a little more reading on human sexuality and psychology. Is there a great psychological difference between a self flagellant [or someone who procures the services of someone else to inflict such pain on them] and various Christians who beat and abused their own bodies or had it done for them by the fellow Christians?

    The pain/pleasure of intense sexual release is generally noted. Why do we cry out when we orgasm? Why do many men experience la petite mort following orgasm? For a women a powerful orgasm can be so intensely pleasurable it borders on the painful.

    Purely as an example, consider how the sixteenth century Teresa of Ávila recounted her vision of a handsome angel who pierced her heart with a flaming lance causing her both pain and rapture.

    That ecstasy is captured in Bernini's sculpture where we have [said] handsome angel pulling aside the top of her robe to reveal her naked breast ready to be pierced by the lance - a phallic symbol. Then we have the look on her face. Is that divine rapture? Or is it orgasmic pleasure?

    More to the point, is there a difference?


    It should also be borne in mind that within Christianity there developed a deep underlying sado-masochistic element with the concept of a triune deity and the sufferings of the Christ, whereby that deity knowingly sent part of itself to be tortured.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      H_A's summation seems valid for at least a small subset of the people engaged in the practices, though the number of ascetics doing so might never have reached a majority. Also, not all flagellants were ascetics.
      These extreme ascetics did not just engage in self-flagellation. They also engaged in other psychologically unhealthy and morbid practises. Starvation, sleep deprivation, living in their own filth, self harm, and of course sexual repression.

      Hence Antony of Egypt's alleged encounters with demons and the devil whom,. so we are told, often appeared as sexually alluring young women in order to tempt him.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

        These extreme ascetics did not just engage in self-flagellation. They also engaged in other psychologically unhealthy and morbid practises. Starvation, sleep deprivation, living in their own filth, self harm, and of course sexual repression.

        Hence Antony of Egypt's alleged encounters with demons and the devil whom,. so we are told, often appeared as sexually alluring young women in order to tempt him.
        Lots of weird practices in many religions - and even non religious. From courting martyrdom (and not just by religious types) to murderous persecution (and not just by religious types) and a lot of behaviours between and to the sides. I chalk it up to real life not being interesting (in the Chinese sense as well) enough for some people.
        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

          Who precisely are these historians of whom you write?
          Tell you what, find one who doesn't speak of the start of the movement and who doesn't put it in the 14th cent. Again, remember, they typically mention that there were previous outbreaks in the century before, but the MOVEMENT did not start until the 14th cent.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #50
            Look here guys, H_A is trying to insult Christianity to get a rise out of you and you aren't playing along!

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Tell you what, find one who doesn't speak of the start of the movement and who doesn't put it in the 14th cent. Again, remember, they typically mention that there were previous outbreaks in the century before, but the MOVEMENT did not start until the 14th cent.
              It appears you could not answer my question.

              As to your contention that the the "movement did not start until the 14th century" here is Gary Dickson's entry in the first volume of The Encyclopaedia of the Middle Ages, Ed, A Vauchez, Du Cerf, 1997, English translation James Clarke & Co 2000. p.550

              [My emphases]

              Within monasticism, flagellation developed into a voluntary penance, becoming prominent in Camaldolese tradition with St Dominic Loncatus [f 1060]. St Peter Damian [f 1072] in his De laude flagellorum, recommended it to both monks and laymen.

              Pious laymen appropriated it during the 12th and especially the 13th century. Devotional motives for the practice included a desire to share in the sufferings of Jesus, the apostles and the martyrs who had been scourged. The Flagellation of Christ was a devotional subject of medieval Christian art. Use of the discipline also figured in the piety of numerous saints and beati [e.g. Hedwig of Silesia, Margaret of Hungary, Charles of Blois].

              Extremely important for the diffusion of penitential culture amongst the laity was the proliferation of flagellant confraternities, attributable to the impulses awakened by the revival of the disciplinati of 1260. It has been calculated that as many as 1,890 penitential confraternities within Italy and 42 in other European countries can be traced back to the stimulus of this movement. Of course, not all these confraternities were founded in its immediate aftermath, although a number were [e.g. in Bologna]. Flagellant confraternities, and such pious groupings as Franciscan and Dominican tertiaries, utilised the discipline as a collective rite of penance, but usually practised it away from the public gaze.

              These confraternities were significant social and civic organisations often in touch with mendicant spirituality midst their activities - charity, liturgy, prayers for the dead, performances of Christian drama, etc. - ritual flagellation played a part, even if it came close to losing its centrality. Such confraternities remained a feature of later medieval Europe.



              Dickson also wrote a paper in 1989 which was published in the Journal of Medieval History.

              https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...04418189900213

              The flagellants of 1260 and the crusades

              Both in its geographical scope and in the institutions it created, the flagellant movement of 1260-61 may be regarded as the most significant popular religious revival of the thirteenth century. The crusading context of this movement has never been systematically explored. Such a context, while it has little relevance to the Spring inception of the penitential enthusiasm in its local Umbrian homeland, does help to account for the crucial step taken by the flagellants in the autumn of 1260, when the disciplinati left Perugia and started out on their missionary pilgrimage. This was the point at which a local enthusiasm began to develop into a major European revival. Acquiring converts along their line of march, the enthusiasts introduced the ritual of collective public flagellation to many northern Italian cities, and to the Germanic, Magyar, and Slavic territories of transalpine Europe. A preliminary discussion of the nature and consequences of the flagellant movement will serve as an introduction to the following topics, to be considered in relation to the departure of the disciplinati from Perugia, and to the character the movement assumed in the course of its peregrinations: (1) as an anti-Manfred crusade; (2) as a peace movement and anti-heresy crusade; (3) as a crusade against the Mongols; and, finally, (4) mission and pilgrimage: prophecy as synthesis.

              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                Lots of weird practices in many religions - and even non religious. From courting martyrdom (and not just by religious types) to murderous persecution (and not just by religious types) and a lot of behaviours between and to the sides. I chalk it up to real life not being interesting (in the Chinese sense as well) enough for some people.
                I quite agree but this thread is looking at the specifically Christian "weird practices".
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  Look here guys, H_A is trying to insult Christianity to get a rise out of you and you aren't playing along!
                  Where precisely and in what regard am I insulting Christianity?

                  Yours was the first reply to my OP where you wrote this:

                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  There were Jewish ascetics too. Maybe it was a carryover? Or it might have been a result of Gnosticism, a Christian heresy.


                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                    Where precisely and in what regard am I insulting Christianity?

                    Yours was the first reply to my OP where you wrote this:


                    You seem to want us to think, "Oh no! Christians were never weird and did weird things!" and try to defend the ascetics as normal so you can have your typical argument thread troll. Sorry to disappoint.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Back to loading your posts down with superfluous coding instructions so as to making a response difficult if not impossible.


                      2400b1f2-046c-472e-8751-7c8eee39719f.jpg

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Back to loading your posts down with superfluous coding instructions so as to making a response difficult if not impossible.


                        2400b1f2-046c-472e-8751-7c8eee39719f.jpg
                        Never mind rogue. From those two links which can be read quite clearly [if the quote button is not used] it is self evident that your remarks on the flagellants being a movement that "did not start until the 14th century" were incorrect, a fact that I initially pointed out to you!
                        Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 05-06-2022, 11:07 AM.
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                          You seem to want us to think, "Oh no! Christians were never weird and did weird things!" and try to defend the ascetics as normal so you can have your typical argument thread troll. Sorry to disappoint.
                          I consider those early extreme ascetics were far from normal and appear to have been psychotic.

                          If such individuals were alive today they would be in psychiatric care.
                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            rogue06

                            Now you can quote it it without any extraneous fonts appearing:

                            Within monasticism, flagellation developed into a voluntary penance, becoming prominent in Camaldolese tradition with St Dominic Loncatus [f 1060]. St Peter Damian [f 1072] in his [De laude flagellorum recommended it to both monks and laymen.

                            Pious laymen appropriated it during the 12th and especially the 13th century. Devotional motives for the practice included a desire to share in the sufferings of Jesus, the apostles and the martyrs who had been scourged. The Flagellation of Christ was a devotional subject of medieval Christian art. Use of the discipline also figured in the piety of numerous saints and beati [e.g. Hedwig of Silesia, Margaret of Hungary, Charles of Blois].

                            Extremely important for the diffusion of penitential culture amongst the laity was the proliferation of flagellant confraternities, attributable to the impulses awakened by the revival of the disciplinati of 1260. It has been calculated that as many as 1,890 penitential confraternities within Italy and 42 in other European countries can be traced back to the stimulus of this movement. Of course, not all these confraternities were founded in its immediate aftermath, although a number were [e.g. in Bologna]. Flagellant confraternities, and such pious groupings as Franciscan and Dominican tertiaries, utilised the discipline as a collective rite of penance, but usually practised it away from the public gaze.]

                            These confraternities were significant social and civic organisations often in touch with mendicant spirituality midst their activities - charity, liturgy, prayers for the dead, performances of Christian drama, etc. - ritual flagellation played a part, even if it came close to losing its centrality. Such confraternities remained a feature of later medieval Europe.


                            Dickson also wrote a paper in 1989 which was published in the Journal of Medieval History.

                            https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...04418189900213

                            The flagellants of 1260 and the crusades

                            Both in its geographical scope and in the institutions it created, the flagellant movement of 1260-61 may be regarded as the most significant popular religious revival of the thirteenth century. The crusading context of this movement has never been systematically explored. Such a context, while it has little relevance to the Spring inception of the penitential enthusiasm in its local Umbrian homeland, does help to account for the crucial step taken by the flagellants in the autumn of 1260, when the disciplinati left Perugia and started out on their missionary pilgrimage. This was the point at which a local enthusiasm began to develop into a major European revival. Acquiring converts along their line of march, the enthusiasts introduced the ritual of collective public flagellation to many northern Italian cities, and to the Germanic, Magyar, and Slavic territories of transalpine Europe. A preliminary discussion of the nature and consequences of the flagellant movement will serve as an introduction to the following topics, to be considered in relation to the departure of the disciplinati from Perugia, and to the character the movement assumed in the course of its peregrinations: (1) as an anti-Manfred crusade; (2) as a peace movement and anti-heresy crusade; (3) as a crusade against the Mongols; and, finally, (4) mission and pilgrimage: prophecy as synthesis.
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              rogue06

                              Now you can quote it it without any extraneous fonts appearing:

                              Within monasticism, flagellation developed into a voluntary penance, becoming prominent in Camaldolese tradition with St Dominic Loncatus [f 1060]. St Peter Damian [f 1072] in his [De laude flagellorum recommended it to both monks and laymen.

                              Pious laymen appropriated it during the 12th and especially the 13th century. Devotional motives for the practice included a desire to share in the sufferings of Jesus, the apostles and the martyrs who had been scourged. The Flagellation of Christ was a devotional subject of medieval Christian art. Use of the discipline also figured in the piety of numerous saints and beati [e.g. Hedwig of Silesia, Margaret of Hungary, Charles of Blois].

                              Extremely important for the diffusion of penitential culture amongst the laity was the proliferation of flagellant confraternities, attributable to the impulses awakened by the revival of the disciplinati of 1260. It has been calculated that as many as 1,890 penitential confraternities within Italy and 42 in other European countries can be traced back to the stimulus of this movement. Of course, not all these confraternities were founded in its immediate aftermath, although a number were [e.g. in Bologna]. Flagellant confraternities, and such pious groupings as Franciscan and Dominican tertiaries, utilised the discipline as a collective rite of penance, but usually practised it away from the public gaze.]

                              These confraternities were significant social and civic organisations often in touch with mendicant spirituality midst their activities - charity, liturgy, prayers for the dead, performances of Christian drama, etc. - ritual flagellation played a part, even if it came close to losing its centrality. Such confraternities remained a feature of later medieval Europe.


                              Dickson also wrote a paper in 1989 which was published in the Journal of Medieval History.

                              https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...04418189900213

                              The flagellants of 1260 and the crusades

                              Both in its geographical scope and in the institutions it created, the flagellant movement of 1260-61 may be regarded as the most significant popular religious revival of the thirteenth century. The crusading context of this movement has never been systematically explored. Such a context, while it has little relevance to the Spring inception of the penitential enthusiasm in its local Umbrian homeland, does help to account for the crucial step taken by the flagellants in the autumn of 1260, when the disciplinati left Perugia and started out on their missionary pilgrimage. This was the point at which a local enthusiasm began to develop into a major European revival. Acquiring converts along their line of march, the enthusiasts introduced the ritual of collective public flagellation to many northern Italian cities, and to the Germanic, Magyar, and Slavic territories of transalpine Europe. A preliminary discussion of the nature and consequences of the flagellant movement will serve as an introduction to the following topics, to be considered in relation to the departure of the disciplinati from Perugia, and to the character the movement assumed in the course of its peregrinations: (1) as an anti-Manfred crusade; (2) as a peace movement and anti-heresy crusade; (3) as a crusade against the Mongols; and, finally, (4) mission and pilgrimage: prophecy as synthesis.
                              So why can't you do that to start with? Instead you'll have all these mutually contradictory codes that clutter everything up and cancel one another. Instead your post starts with [Calibri][New Times Roman][black][Helvetica] before you type your first letter.

                              You appear to have dug up some historians that do refer to the early instances as a movement rather than "predecessors" or put them into the wider "penitence" movements and separate from the flagellantism that started with the Black Death (some even provide a specific year though there is disagreement over whether it should be 1348 or 1349).


                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                So why can't you do that to start with? Instead you'll have all these mutually contradictory codes that clutter everything up and cancel one another. Instead your post starts with [Calibri][New Times Roman][black][Helvetica] before you type your first letter.

                                You appear to have dug up some historians that do refer to the early instances as a movement rather than "predecessors" or put them into the wider "penitence" movements and separate from the flagellantism that started with the Black Death (some even provide a specific year though there is disagreement over whether it should be 1348 or 1349).

                                Rather than digressing on to my posts [incidentally tabibito also regularly has some extraneous fonts on his replies] why not address the fact that your contention was erroneous?

                                I actually cited ONE academic - Gary Dickson. However, Zeigler also refers to the Italian disciplinati and the origins of the movement in the 1200s.
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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