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  • #46
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    More likely to show that someone isn't brain dead that a clinical test indicates is. You are measuring actual brain activity instead of inferring it from other tests.
    It may seem more likely to you, but I believe the clinical tests are the gold standard in diagnosing brain death.

    Source: https://n.neurology.org/content/74/23/1911


    In adults, recovery of neurologic function has not been reported after the clinical diagnosis of brain death has been established using the criteria given in the 1995 AAN practice parameter.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      Jesus and his disciples were reported to have healed the lame (Matthew 11:4-5, Acts 8:7). This could include limb regeneration (re Matthew 12:15, Jesus "healed them all"). This was one of the reasons Christianity spread so rapidly, when people saw God's power at work (Acts 3:12, Acts 4:4). But how about the blind seeing and the deaf hearing? Heidi Baker has many documented cases of this (see the video referenced in the opening post).

      Blessings,
      Lee
      Which brings up an interesting point. Skeptics seem drawn to the "Where are the former amputees?" argument as proof that miracles don't happen, but even in the Bible, for whatever reason, there is no record of someone regrowing a limb. We read about restoration of existing but non-functioning limbs, but there is not a single miraculous account of a missing limb being regenerated.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

        Which brings up an interesting point. Skeptics seem drawn to the "Where are the former amputees?" argument as proof that miracles don't happen, but even in the Bible, for whatever reason, there is no record of someone regrowing a limb. We read about restoration of existing but non-functioning limbs, but there is not a single miraculous account of a missing limb being regenerated.
        Psychological or psychosomatic conditions perhaps? Performing miracles and a belief in magical practises was commonplace throughout the ancient world, and in both Jewish and Graeco-Roman society.

        However, nowhere in the four gospels is there any mention of someone undertaking a six monthly medical check-up on the patient to assess their miraculous cure!
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Stoic View Post

          It may seem more likely to you, but I believe the clinical tests are the gold standard in diagnosing brain death.

          Source: https://n.neurology.org/content/74/23/1911


          In adults, recovery of neurologic function has not been reported after the clinical diagnosis of brain death has been established using the criteria given in the 1995 AAN practice parameter.

          © Copyright Original Source

          I love how you just have to argue about anything, Mr. Contrarian.

          You think merely observing someone not breathing on his own is 'the gold standard,' but actually measuring his brain activity with an EEG is fraught with the possibility of error.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

            Psychological or psychosomatic conditions perhaps? Performing miracles and a belief in magical practises was commonplace throughout the ancient world, and in both Jewish and Graeco-Roman society.

            However, nowhere in the four gospels is there any mention of someone undertaking a six monthly medical check-up on the patient to assess their miraculous cure!
            My point, of course, is that the insistence by some skeptics that we produce evidence of an amputee with a miraculously regrown limb is to demand something that isn't even recorded in the Bible.

            Of course when presented with modern events similar to what is recorded in scripture -- the restoration of sight and hearing, healing from ailments, the dead coming back to life -- the skeptic's inclination is to simply dismiss it, so I don't know why they even bother asking in the first place.
            Last edited by Mountain Man; 05-12-2022, 10:28 AM.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

              My point, of course, is that the insistence by some skeptics that we produce evidence of an amputee with a miraculously regrown limb is to demand something that isn't even recorded in the Bible.

              Of course when presented with modern events similar to what is recorded in scripture -- the restoration of sight and hearing, healing from ailments, the dead coming back to life
              Those are achieved [if they are curable] via medical science and medical knowledge.

              Or are you suggesting that alleged cures effected by shamans and witchdoctors in various religious systems are likewise proof of miracles?
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                Those are achieved [if they are curable] via medical science and medical knowledge.

                Or are you suggesting that alleged cures effected by shamans and witchdoctors in various religious systems are likewise proof of miracles?
                Thank you for proving my point: "...the skeptic's inclination is to simply dismiss it, so I don't know why they even bother asking in the first place."
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                  Thank you for proving my point: "...the skeptic's inclination is to simply dismiss it, so I don't know why they even bother asking in the first place."
                  The point being that if one set of miracles are claimed to have taken place, why not others?
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                    The point being that if one set of miracles are claimed to have taken place, why not others?
                    Why not indeed? Even Pharoah's court magicians were able to perform supernatural feats as recorded in the book of Exodus. I don't discount the miracle claims of other religions. Rather, I assume they are either misatributed miracles of God, or the work of demons. You might ask, "On what basis do you make that assumption?" And the answer is simple: because the miracle of the resurrection trumps every other religiious belief. It's a miracle that only God could have performed, because he is the author of life. From there, the whole of Christian theology falls into place.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                      Why not indeed? Even Pharoah's court magicians were able to perform supernatural feats as recorded in the book of Exodus. I don't discount the miracle claims of other religions. Rather, I assume they are either misatributed miracles of God, or the work of demons. You might ask, "On what basis do you make that assumption?" And the answer is simple: because the miracle of the resurrection trumps every other religiious belief. It's a miracle that only God could have performed, because he is the author of life. From there, the whole of Christian theology falls into place.
                      It can't pass without note that a plethora of counterfeits doesn't negate the existence of the genuine: in fact, the counterfeit could not exist if the genuine had not pre-existed it at some time.

                      In an environment where counterfeit miracles and simple fakery are common place, claims of miracles will be met with initial suspicion: probably to an even greater extent than in circumstances where genuine miracles are unknown. In much the same way, where once photographs were accepted at face value, photo-shopping has produced suspicion of photographic evidence.

                      So yes. Not all claims of miracles by other religions can be disregarded as nonsense: even if only a scant few can't be readily dismissed.

                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        I love how you just have to argue about anything, Mr. Contrarian.
                        Yeah, I have a bad case of SWOTI.

                        You think merely observing someone not breathing on his own is 'the gold standard,' but actually measuring his brain activity with an EEG is fraught with the possibility of error.
                        The set of clinical tests used to determine brain death is not "merely observing someone not breathing on his own". When those tests have been used to determine someone is brain dead, that person does not come back to life. Since the definition of brain death is "the irreversible loss of brain function", that makes them the gold standard.

                        When an EEG is used to determine whether someone is dead, that person sometimes recovers. That makes it a less reliable indicator.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                          Why not indeed? Even Pharoah's court magicians were able to perform supernatural feats as recorded in the book of Exodus. I don't discount the miracle claims of other religions. Rather, I assume they are either misatributed miracles of God, or the work of demons. You might ask, "On what basis do you make that assumption?" And the answer is simple: because the miracle of the resurrection trumps every other religiious belief. It's a miracle that only God could have performed, because he is the author of life. From there, the whole of Christian theology falls into place.
                          Why accept one set of alleged miraculous events and dismiss other such claims?
                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                            Why accept one set of alleged miraculous events and dismiss other such claims?
                            I don't know. Maybe ask someone who does that?
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              I don't know. Maybe ask someone who does that?
                              Am I to infer that you accept as miraculous the various claims by shamans and witch-docters?

                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                Am I to infer that you accept as miraculous the various claims by shamans and witch-docters?
                                Are you even reading my posts? I've already addressed this.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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