Originally posted by Sparko
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Send proof! of miracles...
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostJesus and his disciples were reported to have healed the lame (Matthew 11:4-5, Acts 8:7). This could include limb regeneration (re Matthew 12:15, Jesus "healed them all"). This was one of the reasons Christianity spread so rapidly, when people saw God's power at work (Acts 3:12, Acts 4:4). But how about the blind seeing and the deaf hearing? Heidi Baker has many documented cases of this (see the video referenced in the opening post).
Blessings,
LeeSome may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
Which brings up an interesting point. Skeptics seem drawn to the "Where are the former amputees?" argument as proof that miracles don't happen, but even in the Bible, for whatever reason, there is no record of someone regrowing a limb. We read about restoration of existing but non-functioning limbs, but there is not a single miraculous account of a missing limb being regenerated.
However, nowhere in the four gospels is there any mention of someone undertaking a six monthly medical check-up on the patient to assess their miraculous cure!"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
It may seem more likely to you, but I believe the clinical tests are the gold standard in diagnosing brain death.
You think merely observing someone not breathing on his own is 'the gold standard,' but actually measuring his brain activity with an EEG is fraught with the possibility of error.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Psychological or psychosomatic conditions perhaps? Performing miracles and a belief in magical practises was commonplace throughout the ancient world, and in both Jewish and Graeco-Roman society.
However, nowhere in the four gospels is there any mention of someone undertaking a six monthly medical check-up on the patient to assess their miraculous cure!
Of course when presented with modern events similar to what is recorded in scripture -- the restoration of sight and hearing, healing from ailments, the dead coming back to life -- the skeptic's inclination is to simply dismiss it, so I don't know why they even bother asking in the first place.Last edited by Mountain Man; 05-12-2022, 10:28 AM.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
My point, of course, is that the insistence by some skeptics that we produce evidence of an amputee with a miraculously regrown limb is to demand something that isn't even recorded in the Bible.
Of course when presented with modern events similar to what is recorded in scripture -- the restoration of sight and hearing, healing from ailments, the dead coming back to life
Or are you suggesting that alleged cures effected by shamans and witchdoctors in various religious systems are likewise proof of miracles?"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThose are achieved [if they are curable] via medical science and medical knowledge.
Or are you suggesting that alleged cures effected by shamans and witchdoctors in various religious systems are likewise proof of miracles?Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
Thank you for proving my point: "...the skeptic's inclination is to simply dismiss it, so I don't know why they even bother asking in the first place.""It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
The point being that if one set of miracles are claimed to have taken place, why not others?Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
Why not indeed? Even Pharoah's court magicians were able to perform supernatural feats as recorded in the book of Exodus. I don't discount the miracle claims of other religions. Rather, I assume they are either misatributed miracles of God, or the work of demons. You might ask, "On what basis do you make that assumption?" And the answer is simple: because the miracle of the resurrection trumps every other religiious belief. It's a miracle that only God could have performed, because he is the author of life. From there, the whole of Christian theology falls into place.
In an environment where counterfeit miracles and simple fakery are common place, claims of miracles will be met with initial suspicion: probably to an even greater extent than in circumstances where genuine miracles are unknown. In much the same way, where once photographs were accepted at face value, photo-shopping has produced suspicion of photographic evidence.
So yes. Not all claims of miracles by other religions can be disregarded as nonsense: even if only a scant few can't be readily dismissed.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
- 1 like
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI love how you just have to argue about anything, Mr. Contrarian.
You think merely observing someone not breathing on his own is 'the gold standard,' but actually measuring his brain activity with an EEG is fraught with the possibility of error.
When an EEG is used to determine whether someone is dead, that person sometimes recovers. That makes it a less reliable indicator.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
Why not indeed? Even Pharoah's court magicians were able to perform supernatural feats as recorded in the book of Exodus. I don't discount the miracle claims of other religions. Rather, I assume they are either misatributed miracles of God, or the work of demons. You might ask, "On what basis do you make that assumption?" And the answer is simple: because the miracle of the resurrection trumps every other religiious belief. It's a miracle that only God could have performed, because he is the author of life. From there, the whole of Christian theology falls into place."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Why accept one set of alleged miraculous events and dismiss other such claims?Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI don't know. Maybe ask someone who does that?
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Am I to infer that you accept as miraculous the various claims by shamans and witch-docters?Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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