Originally posted by Mountain Man
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Why do skeptics question whether the Biblical Jesus Christ ever existed?
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
The eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD was a major catastrophe with an ash plume that could have been seen for hundreds and possibly thousands of miles, killed thousands of people, and destroyed two large cities, one of them an important trade hub in the region. And yet the only written record of the event comes from a letter composed by Pliny the Younger over two decades later.
Which is to say that not every significant occurance in the ancient world was well-documented, even when it was witnessed by and signficantly impacted the lives of thousands of people.
Further, I noted that Naples had a reputation during Greco-Roman times as being an area with a highly literate population, so we should have a slew of eyewitness reports in our hands, not just this one. In fact, it's not even until the time of Cassius Dio, over a century later, that we learn that a second major city was destroyed in the eruption.
All of this gets summarily dismissed without discussion. Instead, they start noting the physical evidence of the eruption, and apparently hope I didn't notice that we were very specifically referring to written works, and the goal posts just suffered a seismic shift.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
As has been previously noted, some ancient texts were not preserved in the pre-Christian world, others were destroyed [often by later Christians] and other ancient authors did not elicit the same degree of interest within the Christian world as did the Christian religious texts [copied to spread the word] as well as various letters, homilies etc. from ECFs.
Many of the works that nearly all Christians went out of their way to copy and preserve were something by Aristotle, who was viewed quite highly. And yet two-thirds of it has been lost.
And look at how many early Christian works are only known by what was quoted by others (often centuries later) and some only by the mentioning of their existence. I mean we even lost some of Paul's letters, such as a third letter to the Corinthians mentioned in II Corinthians 2:4; 7:8-9, and set between the two we do have. Ephesians 3:3-4 mentions an earlier epistle he sent to them, and Colossians 4:16 mentions a possible now lost letter to the Laodiceans
As for later works, including some from the earliest Church Fathers, again most is lost or only known in fragments where they are quoted in later works. For instance, Polycarp is believed to have penned several works but all we know of is his Epistle to the Philippians.
Papias' multi-volume Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord is lost except for short excerpts by Irenaeus and especially Eusebius of Caesarea[1]. Similarly, all we know of Hegesippus the Nazarene's history of the church as well as his five volume Hypomnemata ("Memoranda") regarding Apostolic teachings, is provided by Eusebius. And all we know of one Apostolic Father, Quadratus of Athens, is that he wrote an Apology, presented to Hadrian when he was attending the celebration of the Eleusinian mysteries (c.120-130 A.D.). Eusebius mentions it and quotes a single sentence, whereas Jerome provides some biographical details in his Illustrious Men, although some think it influenced Irenaeus when it came to what he wrote about miracles.
In fact, Eusebius cites quite a number of works that are only known through his quotations of them. For instance he cites at least four books by Irenaeus now lost.
I probably should note that some of Eusebius' works are also lost.
The point being even things that people were working hard to preserve were lost in droves.
1. There appears to be some evidence that the work may have survived up into the latter Middle Ages
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
Broad brush false assertion. Yes many Roman records do exist that are considered historical records.
This does not justify your previous assertion. There is abundant evidence much of the Tanakh has evolved from earlier writings from Syrian, Babylonian,and Ugarite texts including the Psalms.
There is abundant evidence that these are evolved forms of older content and language of previous ancient Babylonian, Canaanite, Ugaritic and Pheonician texts older than the Hebrew language. The Hebrew language is a relatively young language and alphabet evolved from older languages.
False, there are many much more ancient papyrus and parchment documents found throughout the Middle East.
Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou appear to not have understood what you're replying to here. While a handful of of papyri have survived in Egypt for as long as 4,000 years or so, most places are too wet for organic writing surfaces to last nearly that long. Even in the case of Egyptian papyri, only an insignificantly small percentage of them will have survived the ravages of the ages.
Nonetheless, the occasional inscription in silver or lead does turn up, and even in stone e.g. the Siloam Inscription. Of course, that wasn't written in Hebrew; it pre-dates the Hebrew alphabet by some centuries. Using the same reasoning, nothing has been written in English for more than a millenium - it's all Latin, because it is written in Roman letters.Last edited by tabibito; 05-12-2022, 03:06 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostName one, and tell me why it is considered a historical record.
You might also consider the Arch of Titus and Trajan's Column as two more examples among the plethora of Roman records.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe Res Gestae Divi Augusti.
You might also consider the Arch of Titus and Trajan's Column as two more examples among the plethora of Roman records.
best-kind-of-correct.gif
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostOf course you knew that wasn't what he meant
As to One Bad Pig, I have no idea what he meant . I only know what he wrote.
He asked for one example of a Roman record. I gave three examples of contemporary Roman records. There are many many more.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostGlendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostName one, and tell me why it is considered a historical record.
You appear to not have understood what you're replying to here. While a handful of of papyri have survived in Egypt for as long as 4,000 years or so, most places are too wet for organic writing surfaces to last nearly that long. Even in the case of Egyptian papyri, only an insignificantly small percentage of them will have survived the ravages of the ages.
You are hugely overstating the earliest Paleo-Hebrew writing, which is not Hebrew. The oldest Paleo-Hebrew is ~3000 years old and it is not Hebrew script.
Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-13-2022, 10:18 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
The comment did not address your claims, but the claims made by your source.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
The comment did not address your claims, but the claims made by your source.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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